[whoaru99]

Service Manual Downloads Drying Up?

FYI/FWIW, went to get a link for VN900 service manual this morning on ManualsLib, a (previously) common place, and got this. Tried a different model and got the same. In some regards I'm not surprised it eventually happened because it costs a lot of $$$ to develop a proper service manual...

www.vulcanforums.com

 

[whoaru99]

People want their rights and interests protected, but that too often goes out the window when someone else's rights and interests stand in their way.

 

[whoaru99]

I understand and appreciate copyright laws.
But businesses need to be reasonable.
Look at the pharmaceutical industry and the prices they charge for new drugs. It is beyond ridiculous. Yes I understand costs of R & D but they get tax writeoffs, grants and investor money as well. They don't have to make up these costs from the first 5000 customers.

That always come back to who's definition of reasonable, and we know that depends a lot if you're buying or selling.

Frankly, $100, $200, whatever doesn't seem unreasonable to me considering if it saves just one shop/dealer repair it has all but certainly paid for itself, if not a lot more.

 

[whoaru99]

From what I've seen of those, especially Chilton, 25% relative cost is about what they're worth.

Admittedly, I've not looked at their motorcycle manuals, but for a couple vehicles I own there always seemed to be details missing, supplanted with general/generics. I bought OEM service manuals.

 

[whoaru99]

If you specify a portion of worth, than you can specify what's the missing 75% of information from the generic manuals that is in the manufacturer's to justify a $75-$175 price difference?

There isn't any convincing those who's mind is already made up, and for those there are those cheaper manuals. Or, no doubt, there are probably places where one can get the manual they really want, "the other way").

But, for the record, the Haynes/Clymer service manual for VN900 (I picked that because it seems pretty popular) is $35 marked down from $45. Kawasaki lists that service manual at $90.

If I needed/wanted to buy one of these manuals I would buy the Kawasaki every day over the Haynes/Clymer.

 

[whoaru99]

Nice strawmen.

 

[whoaru99]

You would think that now with John Deere caving in to farmers being allowed to work on their own John Deere tractors, everyone else would not be so stingy with their info.

FYI, "Right to Repair" means they have to make available the tools or information, but it doesn't mean they have to make it available free or at a cost you deem reasonable/worth it.

Last fall I bought a John Deere Technical Troubleshooting manual. It's not even the repair instructions, it's the schematics, fault codes, how it works, that sort of thing. When I bought last fall it was $535. That same manual today is $663. Did the 'right to repair" agreement have anything to do with the price increase? No idea. But what we know for sure is it didn't make it cost less.

In fact, I've seen some opinions the Right to Repair movement could be part of what is driving clampdowns on "free" information sources.

 

[whoaru99]

Well as posted above its all about the money!!!!!
I didnt say cost of manuals was tied to right to repair, but if you take away what was free there are ways around it - as posted above - just saying.

No, you didn't say it was tied to cost but you did say not being so "stingy" with the info. Availability of Kawasaki service manuals isn't the underlying factor here, but I can't say the same for stingy considering all the fuss over "free".

Also, "free" is a pretty sugar-coated way to describe the reality of it.

Yup, there are ways around but, if the companies decide it's worth pursuing, all you have to do is look at RIAA and music file sharing for how they could approach it. That some have recently issued cease and desist under DMCA is clear evidence somebody is watching.

 

[whoaru99]

That's the thing. I don't know the specifics of the music downloads you have, but any time I see widely disparate prices for the same thing it makes me wonder the legitimacy. Not that it's not the real music or the real service manual, but the legitimacy of the source being an "authorized" source. Just because one pays for something doesn't inherently mean that money went to the legitimate/legal copyright holder or agent thereof.

Far as the aspect of song by song rather than complete album, yeah, I've done that too and would have no problem with a similar approach for service manuals. If the copyright holder allowed page by page purchase hey, cool, so be it. For my VN2K manual that would be roughly $0.14 per page based on cost and number of pages. Of course, in that scheme it'd probably be higher page per page than complete manual, but if someone only needed a couple pages it would be cheaper at that moment in time. On the other hand, I've had my VN2K for 13 years. A $90 service manual amortized over 13 years has been 1.9 cents per day.

 

[whoaru99]

Way, way, way back I could go to the local library and look at the car service manuals there for info I needed.
I didnt, but guess I could have, made a copies of a page or two.
BUT I didnt have to pay anyone the privilege to look at that service manual.

You may not have had to pay (at least not directly, so to speak) for that but someone did, and they did it under an acceptable use term with the copyright holder/agent that allows them to loan that particular authorized copy. Look up "first sale doctrine" for anyone that might be curious.

The point is it's not apples to apples with downloading unauthorized copies of manuals from ManualsLib or whatever similar deal. Obviously not that many seem to care, but still the fact remains.

By the way, borrowing Chilton manuals from the library is how I decided I'd rather have the real thing.

 

[whoaru99]

And then buy your logic, if I sell a bike I should not include the manual I bought for it in the sale.
I cant use it any longer since I just sold the bike, and most likely wont buy that bike again, so it can just lay around for awhile until I garbage it.
...

Without a quote I can't say for sure, but this seems directed at me. Apology if not.

Either you didn't fully read or didn't understand what I wrote because that is pretty much opposite what I said.

Again, refer to "first sale doctrine". Don't assume you know what it means based on how it sounds, which is what your reply suggests you may have done. Look it up.

 

[whoaru99]

whoareu99, I understand the authorized source issue and the paying of royalties.
Personally, I don't mind paying a reasonable fee. If I bought a 2023 Voyager and wanted an up to date manual I would expect to pay more for it.
But as doc said if you are pricing things by planning to retire off the first few thousands of sales, IMHO like he said, you are asking to be pirated.
I don't think patented or copywrite items should entitle the owner to a lifetime income.

I look at it like work. If you perform a job at work on Monday, you will be paid for it at the end of the week or month. But does it mean you will get paid for Monday''s work four more times on Tues, Wed, Thurs, Fri without putting out any more work ?

I had written a reply with challenges to your work analogy, but I erased it all. To shoot the holes is really just a Fool's Errand in the end because it wouldn't change your mind anyway.

 

[whoaru99]

I wonder where Clymer/Haynes/Chilton gets all their tech info?

I'm sure they take some of their own pictures and make some of their own illustrations, write up their own text, etc.

But, for hard technical data, I rather doubt they are determining the bearing tolerances, wear limits, adjustment parameters, resistances of components, etc., etc., etc. All that is very likely borrowed (or perhaps bought/licensed from OEM) but not developed in-house. Having a lot of info already available to you greatly reduces development cost.

 

[whoaru99]

You (I presume inadvertently) make a number of good points why it's wise to buy a service manual, albeit you're overstating the cost by 3x or more at least with regard to the forum mainstay brand.

But, as I said in earlier, to spend much (any really) time dissecting and shooting holes in those type of posts is a fool's errand. Your mind is made up.

IMO, the irony here is those most loudly beating the "greedy company" drum are those most publiczing their own form of greed.

 

[whoaru99]

Here is another avenue that I use.
Haynes/Clymer manuals have an online site. Search to find the one you need.
You can choose to buy a hard copy or pay a year or lifetime subscription to view the manuals online.
The some of their online manuals are more detailed than hard copy and even have videos.
Prices seem reasonable to me.
Unfortunately they don't cover every bike

I purchased a subscription to Alldata(?) for service info on one of my cars that I don't have the OEM service manual. Don't recall the exact cost or duration but I think it was like $50 for 1 year. Saved me at least one trip to a shop so no doubt in my mind it was worth the subscription price.

 

[whoaru99]

I feel like the core of the complaint here seems to be about the high price manufacturers put on the parts/accessories they sell. ...

The more I see the more it seems just general rage against the machine.

Everybody wants a bigger piece of the pie.

 

[whoaru99]

Businesses have to profit to stay in business.

What is scary is some like to decide what profit is too much for others and battle cry "greed", whilst seeking to maximize their own profits.