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Cobra or Dynojet

11K views 50 replies 19 participants last post by  Sojourner 
#1 ·
I am in the market for a fuel processor and wanted the consensus on which is the best - Cobra Fi2000R or PC5.
Thanks - G
 
#41 ·
Cobra's



What does the CVT stand for?
 
#3 ·
I couldn't tell you which one is better, but I can tell you that I'm quite satisfied with my Cobra FI2000R. Some people prefer the added flexibility that the PC gives you (different Map options), but I preferred a simple approach.....didn't want to hassle with Maps. The Cobra has settings that can easily be changed to suit your ride. It was easy to install and I haven't had any problems with it.
 
#4 ·
Well someone should speak up for the PCV. :p So I guess I will. They both give you results but if you want flexibility you should go with PCV. I have maps I can help you with depending on what add ons you have. But of course it's not going to be as good as getting a dyno test yourself. I started out with the PCV when it first came out for the VV and only had a map that Power Commander had for stock set up. I used it until maps became available via the forums & other sources. If you have the coin you can add a auto-tune device from PC people but you have to add a O2 device to your exhaust pipe. I having good luck with the map that I have. Hope this helps. :)
 
#5 ·
Cobra does have a new updated fuel processor out and it is supposed to be the latest and greatest plug and ride set up out there. Its so new that I would probably wait a little while to see if there are any bugs to work out of it. Its called the FI2000 Power Pro tuner. (auto tune) Cobra claims max performance at all rpms and throttle position. No matter what mods you have done. I would look into it.
 
#6 ·
A real assessment should be made between both processor's auto tune offerings.

I'm looking into this also. It seems there is not a single person with just a PC5 on this forum that has any success at all on the Classic or Classic LT. In every case popping and hesitation remained even after multiple dyno runs. What I have not heard is what adding the auto tune option with the PC5 does. The Cobra auto tuner is different than the PC5 in that it does not use an oxygen sensor to grab any A/F ratios. The Cobra does its adjusting dynamically at the crank.

I would only use a PC5 with the autotune add on. It would probably be the best performing option if a baseline map would run correctly for the Classic. The problem is of course when both exhaust and air have been changed virtual all members here have complained about endless issues using the PC5 alone.

The Cobra is certainly a much more easier option. Just plug and play in line with the ECU. No custom maps/tweaking according to Cobra of course. Also, several people have reported being happy with the Cobra. The problem with the Cobra is there is no dyno numbers to measure the performance of this product. Why? Cobra has nothing on this. Not a single published study.

The PC5 is just too much for the limited gain difference on a cruiser style bike. By the time you get the PC5, the auto tune add on, pay for a custom map you're broke and not guaranteed a bike free of hesitation and issues. (Based on forum members PC5 experiences.)

I'm leaning towards the Cobra due to success of others. I would just like to see some sort of published study. Anything. I wrote Cobra and offered to use my bike as a test. They told me there is something coming out in Hot Bagger magazine the October edition that shows a 10HP gain on some bagger.
 
#7 ·
It seems there is not a single person with just a PC5 on this forum that has any success at all on the Classic or Classic LT. In every case popping and hesitation remained even after multiple dyno runs.

Being one of those with the 2009 Classic LT that could never get it adjusted right, 3 Dyno runs... etc, I too would consider the Cobra Auto Tune. The PC-V is too expensive for the little result, even it it worked.
 
#9 ·
I went with the cobra 2000R. I bought a touring bike not a racing machine. The cobra solves the basic problem of running lean. As mentioned it simple trouble free and the added kick is nice but not the primary reason for using one. If you’re wanting to fine tune and get every ounce of power out of this bike possible then the 2000R is not the right choice.
 
#42 ·
Cobra's




On the average can you tell me what the Cobra Fi2000R did to your gas mileage?
Thanks
 
#11 ·
You can find the Cobra for $450 shipped around the net. It's not a little cheaper, it's drastically cheaper. By the time you buy the PC5 and the Autotune option which is a separate module then go pay for dyno runs you're close to double that. If you're paying $400 for the PC5 plus $230 for the autotune and another $200 for custom runs and maps you're at $830. The problem I have with $830 is as stated above with the issue of popping, hesitation, etc after modifying the air and exhaust. I don't see the need to spend hours trying this and that updating values on a map basically guessing after laying out so much cash all over 10HP that can be gained using an alternate fuel processor.

I personally feel that auto tuning A/F ratios and a PC5 with a solid custom map would in THEORY be the best performing option. If the Cobra tuner provides issue free air/fuel mixes to go with more air in and a less restrictive exhaust than this option is the one I'll take.

Deciding on Vance and Hines bigshots vs. Cobra Speedster slashdowns for my classic is the first decision I need to make.
 
#12 ·
I'm not sure you are going to find any fuel controller that will remove the decel popping 100%. All my popping was there with the stock exhaust, just muffled down to meet EPA crap. $450 shipped is a great price for the cobra unit. Where did you find it at that price? I was comparing the costs of the units to each other. I left out install and tuning on purpose. There is to many variables to include it.
 
#13 ·
Pcv info

I have been dealing with Power Commanders since 1997 when they were a very primitive system in their initial developement. The original units were non-user adjustable,Dynojet was sending me units to try on my TL1000S i had at the time.

Due to the Power Commander's adjustabity it is impossible for ANY engine to NOT have the proper a/f ratio.

BUT...and i mean BUT...it cannot compensate for improperly designed ANYTHING! Cams, poor quality cylinder head porting and polishing, bad exhaust or intake systems, etc. I have had MANY skoots that i get the a/f ratio correct and there are still dips and bumps and valleys in the power band that are the result of poor or mismatched components, mismatched specs or just the shape of the powerband inherent in that skoots design. If you look at the torque and power curve for a Yamaha R6 it will surprise you on how ,uh, lumpy and dippy it is.

Now this brings in my concern for those peeps having problems with the PCV and custom maps being done. The BIG VARIABLE here is the dyno operator, their interpretation of the info garnered and the condition of the equiptment used. Are the components sending the correct info. Wide band sensors out of range will show erroneous a/f ratios which may have the tuner making adjustmenst based on that bad info. If the wideband is being used with the exhaust gas pump, what is the condition of the reed valves and when was the last time the pumps were overhauled? Is the filter being cleaned before EVERY dyno session? Are the exhaust pick-up tubes (if used) routed correctly and of the appropriate lengths? What are the a/f ratios at all of the cells, and are they appropriate?

The PCV is a very good unit and has no inherent disabilities that would prevent it from doing what it's supposed to. I have found the main problem of poor running on a custom mapped skoot (especially on a mildly tuned engine
like our Vulcans) would be human and/or mechanical error. My shop has learned from our errors and mistakes, the mistakes of others and good ole trial and error.

Many years ago we had a Busa that came in with the typical pipe/air box mod/filter/ pc/ custom mapped. The performance of this skoot was horrible as described by the owner, our initial test ride and dyno evaluation. When i downloaded the map out of the PC i was in shock!:eek: This was a custom map from a shop with the bestest and the latest Dynojet dyno and technician training, i just could not believe my eyes at what was supposed to be a map!

There is pretty much no reason the proper a/f ratio cannot be met with a PCV or even the older PC3USB. Hesitations and backfiring can be attributed to problems with the engine, intake or exhaust systems, but also to problems with the custom mapping process if those other systems are in proper working order.

If performance problems are noticed after the custom mapping process and it can't be rectified, the $$$$ spent should be refunded. PERIOD.

HOPE THIS HELPS

RACNRAY
 
#14 ·
I have been dealing with Power Commanders since 1997 when they were a very primitive system in their initial developement. The original units were non-user adjustable,Dynojet was sending me units to try on my TL1000S i had at the time.

Due to the Power Commander's adjustabity it is impossible for ANY engine to NOT have the proper a/f ratio.

BUT...and i mean BUT...it cannot compensate for improperly designed ANYTHING! Cams, poor quality cylinder head porting and polishing, bad exhaust or intake systems, etc. I have had MANY skoots that i get the a/f ratio correct and there are still dips and bumps and valleys in the power band that are the result of poor or mismatched components, mismatched specs or just the shape of the powerband inherent in that skoots design. If you look at the torque and power curve for a Yamaha R6 it will surprise you on how ,uh, lumpy and dippy it is.

Now this brings in my concern for those peeps having problems with the PCV and custom maps being done. The BIG VARIABLE here is the dyno operator, their interpretation of the info garnered and the condition of the equiptment used. Are the components sending the correct info. Wide band sensors out of range will show erroneous a/f ratios which may have the tuner making adjustmenst based on that bad info. If the wideband is being used with the exhaust gas pump, what is the condition of the reed valves and when was the last time the pumps were overhauled? Is the filter being cleaned before EVERY dyno session? Are the exhaust pick-up tubes (if used) routed correctly and of the appropriate lengths? What are the a/f ratios at all of the cells, and are they appropriate?

The PCV is a very good unit and has no inherent disabilities that would prevent it from doing what it's supposed to. I have found the main problem of poor running on a custom mapped skoot (especially on a mildly tuned engine
like our Vulcans) would be human and/or mechanical error. My shop has learned from our errors and mistakes, the mistakes of others and good ole trial and error.

Many years ago we had a Busa that came in with the typical pipe/air box mod/filter/ pc/ custom mapped. The performance of this skoot was horrible as described by the owner, our initial test ride and dyno evaluation. When i downloaded the map out of the PC i was in shock!:eek: This was a custom map from a shop with the bestest and the latest Dynojet dyno and technician training, i just could not believe my eyes at what was supposed to be a map!

There is pretty much no reason the proper a/f ratio cannot be met with a PCV or even the older PC3USB. Hesitations and backfiring can be attributed to problems with the engine, intake or exhaust systems, but also to problems with the custom mapping process if those other systems are in proper working order.

If performance problems are noticed after the custom mapping process and it can't be rectified, the $$$$ spent should be refunded. PERIOD.

HOPE THIS HELPS

RACNRAY
Would you say then that Cobras new approach at tuning with there latest processor would be the best route for stock to basic bolt on's for bikes like our vulcans or hondas or even harleys for that matter?

I agree with the fact that mass production metric twins cannot perform like a modified American twin can simply because of the lack of performance parts, cylinders, intakes, fuel injection, ect. Ported this and stroked that.

Harley Davidson and the other American twin companies have the market flooded with engine builders and perfomance parts. They seem to achieve horsepower #'s in the low to mid 100's with the many choices they have. Expensive Yes! But available.

We just dont have the performance options for our metric twins other than exhaust, air, and fuel mods. Therefore the simplest approach may be the most affordable considering the minimal gains.

Dont' get me wrong. I appreciate your your posts and enjoy reading them. I have learned alot and would like to do more to my voyager to get it more responsive. I wish I had the time and resources that you have to spend on this passion of mine and i'm sure others feel the same as well.

I hope Cobras new processor is a home run cause I'm not that impressed with anything else they have in the fuel mgmnt dept for these bikes. They are definately on the right track with this technology and If it performs like they say it does than it is worth the money. As far as the pro-pipe, well right now its the performance choice for the 1700's . I always look forward to your tests and results.
 
#15 ·
Like all engine/fuel managers it's all up to the person tuning and the tools they use. Some places just fudge their dynos so they can make the customer happy and have bragging rights to give them the number they seek. There are so many variables when it comes to tuning a motor. As to American/Metric after market parts you see the same thing in cars as well. Usually the metric parts are scarce and 2-3 times the price for no reason other than production numbers. Just think of how many years harley has built V twins compared to kawasakis big V twins.
 
#19 ·
The problem with the Power Commander is the human element. I'm fully aware I cannot customize a map out of thin air. So after making an investment into a PC I would need to have the bike dyno'd. Just look at the PC5 map options for the 1700 classic on Power Commander's website and we see no options. No maps for any pipe/air box combination exists. Why would I buy this thing to run a 0 map or a "stock" map. So the next option is to take the bike and have a custom map made. At this point the bike is in the hands of a guy who I would not normally trust to change my oil. Ray seems to have a passion and understanding how to gain the most out of these technologies. Do you actually think however that some random metric dealer who wants to get the MOST money out of you for the LEAST work possible thinks the same way as Ray? Even if you landed a decent tech what are the odds that he/she is going to be working so hard to ensure your bike is running correctly? If I were to guess MAYBE 10% of those offering dyno tuning actually do decent work. To find a good tuner is always off word of mouth. You're absolutely throwing money away simply booking some shop in the area to dyno your ride. So therefore the PC5 is a waste of money for the vast majority of people looking to gain some performance doing "stage 1" mods of air/exhaust/fuel processor on a bike that displays a history of popping/hesitation/etc using the product. This is the 1700 Classic/LT.

If the Cobra can perform even close to what it claims there is no need to waste twice the money for the Power Commander alternative. If I were to add Bigshots, Thunder Air, and Cobra and line up against a fully custom mapped and auto tuned PC5 with the same exhaust and air, on the street I'm absolutely certain the quicker bike comes down to the rider 100%.
 
#20 ·
I have installed the Cobra auto tune box on my Vaquero 1700 and find a nice difference compared to stock. i have only had it on for about 300km and really need to get out for a longer ride to see how she does. I have also installed the Cobra Tri ovals. I have not installed any air cleaner and wonder if it would be beneficial??
if which one would you guys.
 
#45 ·
Cobra Fi2000R



When you get a chance to get out and really give it a try, let me know what you think along with fuel mileage.
Thanks
 
#21 ·
Interesting thread. I don't know much about the FI on these bike either, but I'm also curious how they can keep a stock bike half way tuned without a O2 senser. There is alot of difference in air between 10,000 ft and sea level. Also on a really cold day at sea level our bikes could be really lean (on a cold day at the dunes my 2-stroke dirt bike would blow up unless I went way up on the main jet). So if the stock FI system doesn't adjust itself, its just a better preforming carb. Anyways I'm interested in what everyone finds out, and thanks Ray for your expert input.
James
 
#23 ·
They most likely run off a map and temp sensor on the intake. You need something to tell the ecu what is going on to feed the engine the right amount of fuel.
 
#25 ·
The problem with a non-lambda system is:

1. Depends on sensors being accurate from the factory.
2. Depends on sensors "tracking" changes accurately.
3. Any changes/ mods to the engine will reflect a change in MAP readings under identical conditions. Will this new placement in the factory program have a positive or negative impact on fuel metering?
 
#27 ·
TRUE...tho the japs have been using open loop since 1997 with pretty good results on STOCK skoots. FI systems just like carbs have no real designed-in ability to compensate for engine/intake/exhaust mods.

Put a pipe on a carbed skoot and you gotta re-jet. Put a pipe on a FI skoot and remapping is beneficial but there is less of a negative impact on performance than a carbed skoot.

I do ALOT, and i mean ALOT of mapping all thruought the year here and with year-round riding with temp ranging from 90+dg down to the 40's the open loop systems do a good job in compensating for those temp extremes.

RACNRAY
 
#31 ·
Ray I just got off the phone with cobra. Spoke with Brad. In short I asked how the unit works. They told me that it does work off crank speed and injector pulse. I guess time will tell how well it works. I have to get down to you to dyno the bike for a before and after. According to him they are getting great results with the suzuki and harley guys and the kawasaki 1700 people as well. It will be nice to meet you eventually.
 
#32 ·
I look forward to your results before and after with the new Cobra tuner. I assume you are buying the latest version. I have the fi2000r tri pot. I will shelf it or sell it if your results are what I am hoping for. Hopefully you will use Ray as he is in my opinion worth the travel distance from your location.
Please post as soon as you get results or maybe Ray can post his evaluation with the power pro tuner.
With My tuner maybe we can do a comparison to see if the fi2000 is still a good choice as compared to the power-pro. I could possibly meet you all at the same time and do a little dyno shoot.
My mods are Tri-ovals, Fi2000r, Thunder updated air kit. Amsoil 10w40, Water wetter. This could be fun! Let me know.
 
#48 ·
My scoot came with Cobra straight shots, a K&N filter and the Cobra Fi2000. Runs rich up here (mile high) and pops on decel. I've had it into two shops that can't find anything wrong with it. I located a PCIII USB online and installed that.
THe bike cranks for a few minutes and won't start. If I stop cranking I hear a distinctive click at the crankcase, then it starts fine. According to the manual the click is coming from the Decompression Solenoid. DynoJet said to connect the 9V battery connection to a keyd 12V source on the bike. Still didn't work so I took it off and went back to the Fi2000.
I'm so fed up with the popping and running rich that I'm ready to try Stock pipes and stock air filter. Anyone want to trade?
BTW, all that said, I loaded map #M235-002. When the bike ran it ran good but the popping was worse than with the Fi2000.

I wish someone would make an add on that worked in all configurations
 
#51 ·
Just following this thread, it occurs to me that if true that the Cobra continuously variable tuning unit (CVT), which the Cobra tech stated monitors crank speed and fuel injection pulses, changes the number of fuel pulses per charge (stroke) both up and down at a speed of 80 times a second, would it make sense that during these osculations if too rich a charge or too lean a charge were dialed in the speed of the crank would be affected and noted? I envision a wave form that starts out broad then narrows down to a point that crank speed is optimized. Just something I wanted to throw out there. Cheers.
 
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