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Discussion Starter #1
I am in the market for a fuel processor and wanted the consensus on which is the best - Cobra Fi2000R or PC5.
Thanks - G
 

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My vote is the cobra with cvt
 

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I couldn't tell you which one is better, but I can tell you that I'm quite satisfied with my Cobra FI2000R. Some people prefer the added flexibility that the PC gives you (different Map options), but I preferred a simple approach.....didn't want to hassle with Maps. The Cobra has settings that can easily be changed to suit your ride. It was easy to install and I haven't had any problems with it.
 

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Well someone should speak up for the PCV. :p So I guess I will. They both give you results but if you want flexibility you should go with PCV. I have maps I can help you with depending on what add ons you have. But of course it's not going to be as good as getting a dyno test yourself. I started out with the PCV when it first came out for the VV and only had a map that Power Commander had for stock set up. I used it until maps became available via the forums & other sources. If you have the coin you can add a auto-tune device from PC people but you have to add a O2 device to your exhaust pipe. I having good luck with the map that I have. Hope this helps. :)
 

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Cobra does have a new updated fuel processor out and it is supposed to be the latest and greatest plug and ride set up out there. Its so new that I would probably wait a little while to see if there are any bugs to work out of it. Its called the FI2000 Power Pro tuner. (auto tune) Cobra claims max performance at all rpms and throttle position. No matter what mods you have done. I would look into it.
 

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A real assessment should be made between both processor's auto tune offerings.

I'm looking into this also. It seems there is not a single person with just a PC5 on this forum that has any success at all on the Classic or Classic LT. In every case popping and hesitation remained even after multiple dyno runs. What I have not heard is what adding the auto tune option with the PC5 does. The Cobra auto tuner is different than the PC5 in that it does not use an oxygen sensor to grab any A/F ratios. The Cobra does its adjusting dynamically at the crank.

I would only use a PC5 with the autotune add on. It would probably be the best performing option if a baseline map would run correctly for the Classic. The problem is of course when both exhaust and air have been changed virtual all members here have complained about endless issues using the PC5 alone.

The Cobra is certainly a much more easier option. Just plug and play in line with the ECU. No custom maps/tweaking according to Cobra of course. Also, several people have reported being happy with the Cobra. The problem with the Cobra is there is no dyno numbers to measure the performance of this product. Why? Cobra has nothing on this. Not a single published study.

The PC5 is just too much for the limited gain difference on a cruiser style bike. By the time you get the PC5, the auto tune add on, pay for a custom map you're broke and not guaranteed a bike free of hesitation and issues. (Based on forum members PC5 experiences.)

I'm leaning towards the Cobra due to success of others. I would just like to see some sort of published study. Anything. I wrote Cobra and offered to use my bike as a test. They told me there is something coming out in Hot Bagger magazine the October edition that shows a 10HP gain on some bagger.
 

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It seems there is not a single person with just a PC5 on this forum that has any success at all on the Classic or Classic LT. In every case popping and hesitation remained even after multiple dyno runs.

Being one of those with the 2009 Classic LT that could never get it adjusted right, 3 Dyno runs... etc, I too would consider the Cobra Auto Tune. The PC-V is too expensive for the little result, even it it worked.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Cobra does have a new updated fuel processor out and it is supposed to be the latest and greatest plug and ride set up out there. Its so new that I would probably wait a little while to see if there are any bugs to work out of it. Its called the FI2000 Power Pro tuner. (auto tune) Cobra claims max performance at all rpms and throttle position. No matter what mods you have done. I would look into it.
The Cobra AutoTune retails for $600, that's a little out of my price range. Thanks!
 

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I went with the cobra 2000R. I bought a touring bike not a racing machine. The cobra solves the basic problem of running lean. As mentioned it simple trouble free and the added kick is nice but not the primary reason for using one. If you’re wanting to fine tune and get every ounce of power out of this bike possible then the 2000R is not the right choice.
 

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The Cobra AutoTune retails for $600, that's a little out of my price range. Thanks!
That is msrp for the unit. It can be bought for $474 cli-maxriding .com that price makes it very competitive with the PCV + auto tune. Plus I think it may be a little cheaper the the PCV setup. I have the cobra on order for my nomad and will get it at the end of the month. The reason it's taking so long to get it is a friend is getting it for me at a smoking price, cheaper than anything on the internet. I hope to get a before and after dyno. I have a dyno place near me or I may just take the bike to racnray and let him dyno it.
 

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You can find the Cobra for $450 shipped around the net. It's not a little cheaper, it's drastically cheaper. By the time you buy the PC5 and the Autotune option which is a separate module then go pay for dyno runs you're close to double that. If you're paying $400 for the PC5 plus $230 for the autotune and another $200 for custom runs and maps you're at $830. The problem I have with $830 is as stated above with the issue of popping, hesitation, etc after modifying the air and exhaust. I don't see the need to spend hours trying this and that updating values on a map basically guessing after laying out so much cash all over 10HP that can be gained using an alternate fuel processor.

I personally feel that auto tuning A/F ratios and a PC5 with a solid custom map would in THEORY be the best performing option. If the Cobra tuner provides issue free air/fuel mixes to go with more air in and a less restrictive exhaust than this option is the one I'll take.

Deciding on Vance and Hines bigshots vs. Cobra Speedster slashdowns for my classic is the first decision I need to make.
 

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I'm not sure you are going to find any fuel controller that will remove the decel popping 100%. All my popping was there with the stock exhaust, just muffled down to meet EPA crap. $450 shipped is a great price for the cobra unit. Where did you find it at that price? I was comparing the costs of the units to each other. I left out install and tuning on purpose. There is to many variables to include it.
 

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Pcv info

I have been dealing with Power Commanders since 1997 when they were a very primitive system in their initial developement. The original units were non-user adjustable,Dynojet was sending me units to try on my TL1000S i had at the time.

Due to the Power Commander's adjustabity it is impossible for ANY engine to NOT have the proper a/f ratio.

BUT...and i mean BUT...it cannot compensate for improperly designed ANYTHING! Cams, poor quality cylinder head porting and polishing, bad exhaust or intake systems, etc. I have had MANY skoots that i get the a/f ratio correct and there are still dips and bumps and valleys in the power band that are the result of poor or mismatched components, mismatched specs or just the shape of the powerband inherent in that skoots design. If you look at the torque and power curve for a Yamaha R6 it will surprise you on how ,uh, lumpy and dippy it is.

Now this brings in my concern for those peeps having problems with the PCV and custom maps being done. The BIG VARIABLE here is the dyno operator, their interpretation of the info garnered and the condition of the equiptment used. Are the components sending the correct info. Wide band sensors out of range will show erroneous a/f ratios which may have the tuner making adjustmenst based on that bad info. If the wideband is being used with the exhaust gas pump, what is the condition of the reed valves and when was the last time the pumps were overhauled? Is the filter being cleaned before EVERY dyno session? Are the exhaust pick-up tubes (if used) routed correctly and of the appropriate lengths? What are the a/f ratios at all of the cells, and are they appropriate?

The PCV is a very good unit and has no inherent disabilities that would prevent it from doing what it's supposed to. I have found the main problem of poor running on a custom mapped skoot (especially on a mildly tuned engine
like our Vulcans) would be human and/or mechanical error. My shop has learned from our errors and mistakes, the mistakes of others and good ole trial and error.

Many years ago we had a Busa that came in with the typical pipe/air box mod/filter/ pc/ custom mapped. The performance of this skoot was horrible as described by the owner, our initial test ride and dyno evaluation. When i downloaded the map out of the PC i was in shock!:eek: This was a custom map from a shop with the bestest and the latest Dynojet dyno and technician training, i just could not believe my eyes at what was supposed to be a map!

There is pretty much no reason the proper a/f ratio cannot be met with a PCV or even the older PC3USB. Hesitations and backfiring can be attributed to problems with the engine, intake or exhaust systems, but also to problems with the custom mapping process if those other systems are in proper working order.

If performance problems are noticed after the custom mapping process and it can't be rectified, the $$$$ spent should be refunded. PERIOD.

HOPE THIS HELPS

RACNRAY
 

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I have been dealing with Power Commanders since 1997 when they were a very primitive system in their initial developement. The original units were non-user adjustable,Dynojet was sending me units to try on my TL1000S i had at the time.

Due to the Power Commander's adjustabity it is impossible for ANY engine to NOT have the proper a/f ratio.

BUT...and i mean BUT...it cannot compensate for improperly designed ANYTHING! Cams, poor quality cylinder head porting and polishing, bad exhaust or intake systems, etc. I have had MANY skoots that i get the a/f ratio correct and there are still dips and bumps and valleys in the power band that are the result of poor or mismatched components, mismatched specs or just the shape of the powerband inherent in that skoots design. If you look at the torque and power curve for a Yamaha R6 it will surprise you on how ,uh, lumpy and dippy it is.

Now this brings in my concern for those peeps having problems with the PCV and custom maps being done. The BIG VARIABLE here is the dyno operator, their interpretation of the info garnered and the condition of the equiptment used. Are the components sending the correct info. Wide band sensors out of range will show erroneous a/f ratios which may have the tuner making adjustmenst based on that bad info. If the wideband is being used with the exhaust gas pump, what is the condition of the reed valves and when was the last time the pumps were overhauled? Is the filter being cleaned before EVERY dyno session? Are the exhaust pick-up tubes (if used) routed correctly and of the appropriate lengths? What are the a/f ratios at all of the cells, and are they appropriate?

The PCV is a very good unit and has no inherent disabilities that would prevent it from doing what it's supposed to. I have found the main problem of poor running on a custom mapped skoot (especially on a mildly tuned engine
like our Vulcans) would be human and/or mechanical error. My shop has learned from our errors and mistakes, the mistakes of others and good ole trial and error.

Many years ago we had a Busa that came in with the typical pipe/air box mod/filter/ pc/ custom mapped. The performance of this skoot was horrible as described by the owner, our initial test ride and dyno evaluation. When i downloaded the map out of the PC i was in shock!:eek: This was a custom map from a shop with the bestest and the latest Dynojet dyno and technician training, i just could not believe my eyes at what was supposed to be a map!

There is pretty much no reason the proper a/f ratio cannot be met with a PCV or even the older PC3USB. Hesitations and backfiring can be attributed to problems with the engine, intake or exhaust systems, but also to problems with the custom mapping process if those other systems are in proper working order.

If performance problems are noticed after the custom mapping process and it can't be rectified, the $$$$ spent should be refunded. PERIOD.

HOPE THIS HELPS

RACNRAY
Would you say then that Cobras new approach at tuning with there latest processor would be the best route for stock to basic bolt on's for bikes like our vulcans or hondas or even harleys for that matter?

I agree with the fact that mass production metric twins cannot perform like a modified American twin can simply because of the lack of performance parts, cylinders, intakes, fuel injection, ect. Ported this and stroked that.

Harley Davidson and the other American twin companies have the market flooded with engine builders and perfomance parts. They seem to achieve horsepower #'s in the low to mid 100's with the many choices they have. Expensive Yes! But available.

We just dont have the performance options for our metric twins other than exhaust, air, and fuel mods. Therefore the simplest approach may be the most affordable considering the minimal gains.

Dont' get me wrong. I appreciate your your posts and enjoy reading them. I have learned alot and would like to do more to my voyager to get it more responsive. I wish I had the time and resources that you have to spend on this passion of mine and i'm sure others feel the same as well.

I hope Cobras new processor is a home run cause I'm not that impressed with anything else they have in the fuel mgmnt dept for these bikes. They are definately on the right track with this technology and If it performs like they say it does than it is worth the money. As far as the pro-pipe, well right now its the performance choice for the 1700's . I always look forward to your tests and results.
 

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Like all engine/fuel managers it's all up to the person tuning and the tools they use. Some places just fudge their dynos so they can make the customer happy and have bragging rights to give them the number they seek. There are so many variables when it comes to tuning a motor. As to American/Metric after market parts you see the same thing in cars as well. Usually the metric parts are scarce and 2-3 times the price for no reason other than production numbers. Just think of how many years harley has built V twins compared to kawasakis big V twins.
 

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Thoughts

would you say then that cobras new approach at tuning with there latest processor would be the best route for stock to basic bolt on's for bikes like our vulcans or hondas or even harleys for that matter?
IF it works as claimed then yes. Here is the info off their website for those not familiar with it(me)...

"Fi2000 PowrPro: Continuously Variable Tuning (CVT)
The world of motorcycle fuel injection calibration has changed completely and permanently with the introduction of Cobra Engineering's new-tech Fi2000 PowrPro with CVT Continuously Variable Tuning. With PowrPro you can say good-bye to old-school EFI mapping mania and O2 sensor hassles.

The PowrPro reads the bike's EFI delivery at up to 80 times per second every time the throttle is opened to optimize the acceleration air/ fuel mixture, under every kind of load and under all existing conditions. Here's what makes this product so great:

No dyno testing to determine the right map.

No confusing computer-mapping downloads to select and install.

No welding hassles with O2 sensors or costly pipe changes.

PowrPro will always supply optimum fuel ratios wherever you find yourself riding tomorrow, next month or next year.

It's like having the best custom map-writing software and a dyno operator tuning your fuel delivery 80 times a second, every time you crank open the throttle.

Tunes the acceleration fuel delivery in every gear, with every roll on, every environmental change, and every engine mod, whether you're lugging the engine or winding it out to redline: PowrPro reacts, verifies and adjusts instantaneously to current riding conditions. No matter what kind of new hardware you install on your bike--a new exhaust system, a freer-flowing air filter setup or even a big-bore hop-up kit with high-performance cams, PowrPro continues to analyze and tune your engine for peak performance.

And that's not just at peak power settings; PowrPro delivers perfect fuel metering any time the bike accelerates, under all loads for full power and the ultimate in smooth and crisp throttle response. CVT--Continuously Variable Tuning. That's the key to the remarkable performance the Fi2000 PowrPro delivers. PowrPro uses electronic control technology that calculates the bike's rate of acceleration by reading crankshaft rotation at the flywheel and changes in load just as a dynamometer measures acceleration at the rear wheel.

That allows PowrPro to measure and adjust fuel flow during acceleration to the injectors in microseconds for super-fast fuel tuning--continuously and automatically! Net result: precise EFI tuning now happens in the real world in real time, nonstop--at up to 80 times per second.

Patent pending".




Lots of claims here which leads me to alot of questions.

First off, all STOCK FI systems do exactly what this programmer can do as far as compensating for: ambient weather conditions, altitude, rate of acceleration, etc.

every time the throttle is opened to optimize the acceleration air/ fuel mixture, under every kind of load and under all existing conditions.

PowrPro will always supply optimum fuel ratios wherever you find yourself riding tomorrow, next month or next year.

Tunes the acceleration fuel delivery in every gear, with every roll on, every environmental change, and every engine mod, whether you're lugging the engine or winding it out to redline: PowrPro reacts, verifies and adjusts instantaneously to current riding conditions.

OK...except for what i left in black all FI systems do exactly what was stated. They have to or the engines would not be able to run. Just think, if your FI system only supplied fuel to the engine in slow roll on type acceleration, it would fall waaaay short in more spirited acceleration.

I see these claims at being nothing more than extolling characteristics already being accomplished by the stock FI system.

As far as being able to compensate for aftermartket mods, that is where i am curious. The stock ECU gets info from various sensors: throttle position(the ecu needs to "know" what your doing with your right hand), crank sensor(ecu needs to "know" engine rpm and rate of acceleration), MAP ( ecu needs to "know" what the level of vacuum or pressure is in the intake), barometric pressure ( ecu needs to "know" what the atmospheric pressure is), air temp (ecu needs to know what the ambient temp is). All this info is used to determine injector operation and ignition timing. The addition, modification or replacement of stock components will alter the engines need for fuel. We all know the stock ECU cannot compensate for these mods, so i wonder, with the Cobra system only recieving the above info how can it determine what changes to make to the FI system? How can it "know" what the engine's fuel requirement is, and if it does i'd like to know how it formulates this and what info from what sensor(s) is used.

I may make some phone calls to people more knowledgable than me and see if i can learn a bit more about this system.

Bottom line, if it can FULLY compensate for aftermarket mods to our skoots than it will be a very good product, possibly replacing other competitors products.

RACNRAY
 

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Please by all means make the call. You would have the right questions to ask and i trust your integrity. Lets us know what you come up with as I am interested in this new and simple processor. Thanks again Ray!
 

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Cobra Slip On's

That is msrp for the unit. It can be bought for $474 cli-maxriding .com that price makes it very competitive with the PCV + auto tune. Plus I think it may be a little cheaper the the PCV setup. I have the cobra on order for my nomad and will get it at the end of the month. The reason it's taking so long to get it is a friend is getting it for me at a smoking price, cheaper than anything on the internet. I hope to get a before and after dyno. I have a dyno place near me or I may just take the bike to racnray and let him dyno it.
Capt3J. If you don't mind let me know how the fuel manager works out. Would like your thoughts and impressions.
Thanks
 

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The problem with the Power Commander is the human element. I'm fully aware I cannot customize a map out of thin air. So after making an investment into a PC I would need to have the bike dyno'd. Just look at the PC5 map options for the 1700 classic on Power Commander's website and we see no options. No maps for any pipe/air box combination exists. Why would I buy this thing to run a 0 map or a "stock" map. So the next option is to take the bike and have a custom map made. At this point the bike is in the hands of a guy who I would not normally trust to change my oil. Ray seems to have a passion and understanding how to gain the most out of these technologies. Do you actually think however that some random metric dealer who wants to get the MOST money out of you for the LEAST work possible thinks the same way as Ray? Even if you landed a decent tech what are the odds that he/she is going to be working so hard to ensure your bike is running correctly? If I were to guess MAYBE 10% of those offering dyno tuning actually do decent work. To find a good tuner is always off word of mouth. You're absolutely throwing money away simply booking some shop in the area to dyno your ride. So therefore the PC5 is a waste of money for the vast majority of people looking to gain some performance doing "stage 1" mods of air/exhaust/fuel processor on a bike that displays a history of popping/hesitation/etc using the product. This is the 1700 Classic/LT.

If the Cobra can perform even close to what it claims there is no need to waste twice the money for the Power Commander alternative. If I were to add Bigshots, Thunder Air, and Cobra and line up against a fully custom mapped and auto tuned PC5 with the same exhaust and air, on the street I'm absolutely certain the quicker bike comes down to the rider 100%.
 

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I have installed the Cobra auto tune box on my Vaquero 1700 and find a nice difference compared to stock. i have only had it on for about 300km and really need to get out for a longer ride to see how she does. I have also installed the Cobra Tri ovals. I have not installed any air cleaner and wonder if it would be beneficial??
if which one would you guys.
 
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