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25K views 196 replies 49 participants last post by  Lunatic 
#1 ·
I was with an experienced rider a few weeks back, a guy who likes to tour the country much the way I plan on doing with my Voyager. He packs a handgun for long trips, for self defense. Has a concealed weapon permit.

I for one am not that experienced with shooting, but I must admit riding alone through a big city I feel very vulnerable. If I were to make a weapons purchase, I for sure would seek training and practice.

I was curious as to opinions on this forum. I am sure I will get a variety, but that is ok. I might learn something.

Thanks!
 
#64 ·
First of all, if you are going to carry, make sure you do so 24=7 so that it becomes a part of who you are. Do whatever is necessary to become proficient with your firearm of choice and practice to stay that way. Carry on your person and don't try to stash something in a bag or anywhere not immediately accessible. When it's needed you don't have time to dig through a bag looking for your gun. Practice from your normal mode of carry and do it frequently.

To threaten someone with an unloaded weapon, aside from being stupid, is called brandishing and in some cases will get you as much or more trouble as actually using the thing properly. In other cases it will get you dead. Keep in mind, the criminal element is not known for their intelligence or use of common sense.

Castle doctrine is highly misunderstood and in no state gives one the right to unlimited action often referred to as Dirty Harry syndrome. If you have to shoot, no matter what state you're in, you had damn well better be able to prove it was in self defense and even then it is going to cost you a small fortune defending yourself either criminally or civilly. Of course one must take into account the communist states and their unconstitutional laws such as California, Illinois, New York, and so on. Being prepared to accept the responsibility of your actions is a huge part of firearms ownership.

Rock salt? Seriously? Just a hint. It may have a reduced effective range, but still kills just as dead. Remember the actor who killed himself with a blank? Don't buy into old wives tales. Get the facts.
 
#65 ·
Castle doctrine is highly misunderstood and in no state gives one the right to unlimited action often referred to as Dirty Harry syndrome. If you have to shoot, no matter what state you're in, you had damn well better be able to prove it was in self defense and even then it is going to cost you a small fortune defending yourself either criminally or civilly...... Get the facts.
Here is the law in Florida:

"776.013 Home protection; use of deadly force; presumption of fear of death or great bodily harm.—

(1) A person is presumed to have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another when using defensive force that is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm to another if:

(a) The person against whom the defensive force was used was and forcibly entered, a dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle, or if that person had removed or was attempting to remove another against that person’s will from the dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle; and

(b) The person who uses defensive force knew or had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry or unlawful and forcible act was occurring or had occurred."

The law goes on to list four exemptions to the Castle Doctrine - you cannot shot: (1) someone who is lawfully in the house (2) the guardian of a child or grandchild who is lawfully in the house (3) if you yourself are engaged in unlawful activity or (4) the person who entered is a Law Enforcement Officer engaged in their official duties.

The law goes on to say:

"(3) A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.

(4) A person who unlawfully and by force enters or attempts to enter a person’s dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle is presumed to be doing so with the intent to commit an unlawful act involving force or violence."

Note that the law in Florida extends to an "occupied vehicle".

Bottom line - if someone forces their way into your home or vehicle they are presumed to be doing so with the intent to break the law or do violence, and you are legally entitled to suffer the consequences on them.

The "stand your ground" clause is VERY controversial. If I shoot you out in public it is your word against mine as to whether you attacked me, and if you are dead then what??
 
#66 ·
I've yet to meet someone who was in a situation where they needed a gun. I know a lot of people - pro and anti gun, and not one of them has ever been saved by having a gun. I live in Chicago, the Murder Capital of America and just about all murders are pre-meditated.

I don't live in fear. I often forget to lock my doors at night or when I leave the house. I let my wife walk the dog (small dog) at night. I let my kids run around the neighborhood. I often go into the city - the Murder Capital - without fear. I've grown up around gang members and I still have encounters. My last encounter? Some gang members stopped me and asked me where I was going because I was drunk and turned around and headed into a bad neighborhood. They gave me directions to the bus stop and didn't ask for anything in return.

I've been in situations where I've had a gun pointed at me. I fled and no shots were fired.

My parents have had their house broken into while they slept. The burglars took stuff quickly and ran. No one tried to kill anyone.
 
#68 ·
Also, you do all realize your 1000 times more likely to die from your motorcycle than from a "criminal" killing you, right? And if you do end up shot, it's usually for one of the following reasons:

1. You decided to shoot yourself.
2. You were banging some dudes wife and he's none too happy
3. Same as #2, but your wife is none too happy
4. Your pissed off kid thinks you're a crappy dad
5. You were wearing the wrong gang colors and you killed or threatened a rival
6. A random bullet flew into your house
 
#70 ·
I've yet to meet someone who was in a situation where they needed a gun.
Maybe you never met them because they were killed when a gun could have saved them. Just sayin'.
 
#71 ·
Oh, and.....



:D:D
 
#75 ·
I'm of the mind that I can't kill someone. I have kids, I can't shoot a teenager who's in my house because he's broke and needs money for whatever reason. I can't justify killing someone who is out of options for money when I have more money than I need. I can't do it. I can't look at them and not see someone who was a young little boy like my kids who just doesn't have a great life.

Most burglaries are completely unarmed - they're there to grab something of value and leave. Stealing and killing are different ball parks. Most normal people have no desire to ever kill anyone. By few people are willing to go out in a blaze of glory, and even fewer would senselessly kill unarmed people.

Sorry but I believe you were fed a fantasy that caused you to buy a gun and ammo. I believe that 50 years ago people were sold a similar lie to buy bomb shelters.

No one seems to be skeptical of the marketing job of weapons dealers. You're skeptical of EVERYTHING else, but you trust your gun man. Every time a democrat is elected you're told to "stock up now, because (Carter, Clinton, Obama) is going to take your guns. Every time a Dem is elected gun and ammo sales go through the roof and none of them have really fought for gun control. They've asked questions, but have their been bans?

I know your guns give you a sense of security and make you feel safer than me. Friends, l'm 37 years old and I've never felt the need to draw a piece. I like shooting guns because it's fun and it makes me also feel powerful, but it's just not a practical use for $500 of mine (to buy one).

You know what's better than a gun? A Rottweiler. They provide security and love.
 
#80 ·
I'm of the mind that I can't kill someone. I have kids, I can't shoot a teenager who's in my house because he's broke and needs money for whatever reason. I can't justify killing someone who is out of options for money when I have more money than I need. I can't do it. I can't look at them and not see someone who was a young little boy like my kids who just doesn't have a great life.

Most burglaries are completely unarmed - they're there to grab something of value and leave. Stealing and killing are different ball parks. Most normal people have no desire to ever kill anyone. By few people are willing to go out in a blaze of glory, and even fewer would senselessly kill unarmed people.

Sorry but I believe you were fed a fantasy that caused you to buy a gun and ammo. I believe that 50 years ago people were sold a similar lie to buy bomb shelters.

No one seems to be skeptical of the marketing job of weapons dealers. You're skeptical of EVERYTHING else, but you trust your gun man. Every time a democrat is elected you're told to "stock up now, because (Carter, Clinton, Obama) is going to take your guns. Every time a Dem is elected gun and ammo sales go through the roof and none of them have really fought for gun control. They've asked questions, but have their been bans?

I know your guns give you a sense of security and make you feel safer than me. Friends, l'm 37 years old and I've never felt the need to draw a piece. I like shooting guns because it's fun and it makes me also feel powerful, but it's just not a practical use for $500 of mine (to buy one).

You know what's better than a gun? A Rottweiler. They provide security and love.
Most normally people wouldn't run you off the road on your bike either. Do you not bother worrying about that either?

BTW, I have a pittbull/terrier mix, and a Louisville slugger behind the front door, can't ever be TOO ready.
And to answer your question, YES, there HAVE been bans. How do you not know that?
 
#76 ·
Cheese, if you don't want one. Don't buy one. Those of us that choose to exercise our second amendment rights in a lawful manner don't have to agree with you.
Originally this started as a thread for someone that was interested in purchasing a handgun and wanted some recommendations and asked why some people do choose to carry. Not why people don't.

So basically carry or don't. Lets get back to discussing some of the awesome handgun options out there.


Sent from my iPhone using Motorcycle.com App
 
#78 ·
CF,
You keep implying that gun owners are tricked by Hollywood or advertisers or whoever.

But, your statements show either you are intentionally arguing a falsehood; or you are the one mislead into believing all criminals are some kind of Jean Valjean sympathetic character.

The news THIS morning in Chicago shows that is not the case.

*Five shootings left seven people injured overnight, as Chicago's unseasonably warm weekend continued to be a violent one. The shootings followed an afternoon and evening in which eight people were shot, one fatally. Earlier in the weekend, 15 people were shot, four of them fatally, between 6 p.m. Friday night and Saturday morning.

Some people believe that all gun ownership is responsible for gun violence; if that is your view then argue that point.
But, trying to say there are not dangerous criminals in the world is ridiculous.

(Sorry for the cut & paste job) (the following are all from Chicago)

*Police are seeking two suspects after two men were wounded during a shooting and home invasion early today in North Aurora.The victims were in an apartment in the 100 block of South River Road around 7:05 a.m. when the shooting took place. Upon arrival, police said they found a 23-year-old man with a gunshot wound to the chest and another male, 22, with a gunshot wound to the arm.

*A shooting and home invasion in west suburban Lyons Saturday morning ended with one of the three gunmen shot in the head, apparently by one of his cohorts. Police were called to the 8700 block of Plainfield Road at 5:58 a.m. after receiving a 911 call saying that three men were shooting at a residence there, according to Lyons Police Sgt. Matt Buckley.


*October 11, 2012 (CHICAGO) (WLS) -- Police say a 21-year-old man was shot in the head during an apparent home invasion on the city's South Side. The victim was pronounced dead Thursday around noon at the scene in the 600-block of East 87th Place in the Chatham neighborhood. Police are searching for the suspect.

*CHICAGO (CBS) — A 16-year-old boy was killed and his mother was critically injured when they were both shot in the head during a home invasion Tuesday morning in the Avondale neighborhood.Two gunmen in dark clothing and masks stormed into their home on the 3400 block of North Lawndale Avenue around 8:45 a.m. Tuesday and shot the teen and his 33-year-old mother in the head.Andre Vasquez, 16, and his mother were both taken to Advocate Illinois Masonic Medical Center in critical condition. Vasquez was later pronounced dead Tuesday afternoon, according to the Cook County Medical Examiner’s office.His mother, Krystal Hethcoat, has been in surgery Tuesday afternoon and was listed in critical condition.

*Chicago police arrested a 21-year-old man Sunday morning who they say dragged a woman in an alley and attacked her as she was jogging through the Old Town Triangle neighborhood.The woman, in her 50s, was going for an early morning jog when her attacker approached and grabbed her about 7:30 a.m. in the 300 block of West Menomonee Street, police said

*On a Gold Coast street teeming with women joggers and moms pushing high-end strollers, a woman told police she was grabbed Tuesday night by a man while walking from an elevator to her apartment door and sexually assaulted in her home.The assault occurred about 10:30 p.m. inside the woman’s apartment a mid-rise building in the 1300 block of North Dearborn, police said.


*Kelly Davis wonders what would have happened had he been looking the other way for just a few moments.He was standing in Daley Plaza watching his two young daughters slide down the Picasso sculpture Saturday night when he saw a man rushing toward daughter Myla, 2.The man grabbed the girl's arm, muttering, "This is my daughter, Goldilocks." But Davis said he was able to fight him off and then chased him through alleys and building lobbies before finally flagging down police.


Scott
 
#82 ·
Wow, I hope this is at least a little overstated. I am from Canada, and fully intend to do some touring in the US. Needless to say, being from Canada, there is now way in the world for me to be carring a handgun.
 
#83 · (Edited)
I'm a former LEO and current Concealed Weapons Instructor, so I will throw my opinion in here from a "I have carried a firearm for the last 18 years" point of view. As some have said the LC9 or LCP are both good concealed pistols (I own each) with the LCP being a true pocket gun. Although the LCP is a easy gun to hide regardless of clothing worn, I personally would recommend the LC9 or a Sig 239 (my personal carry choice 90% of the time), or a 1911, carried in a Inside the Waist Band (IWB) holster. Using an IWB holster with a T-Shirt will easily conceal a larger gun, and while a LCP will get it done, I'm of the opinion if you are going to carry, carry the largest caliber (with in reason, 9mm, .40S&W, 357Sig, 45acp, or 38, 357 wheel guns) you can comfortably conceal and shoot well. I am new to Vulcans but have ridden street for 24 years, carrying a pistol for 18 years. Colder weather, a shoulder holster with a sweat shirt or jacket over it, or warmer weather an IWB. There are many IWB holsters that even allow you to tuck in you shirt, so the wind won't blow it up and expose your gun.

Also, I carried a full size Glock and compact Glock in 40S&W (Models 22 & 27 respectively) on duty as a LEO and still carry them in the manners above. I guess what I'm saying is that if you find a pistol/ revolver you like and shoot well, you can carry it regardless of size (again with in reason) if you use the right methods.

As for the carry or not carry, the old 'cliche' "I'd rather have it with me and never need it than need it and not have it with me......" Unlike a previous poster here, I personally have been involved in many cases where a gun legally possessed or carried by a civilian saved them, some by the use of it, some by the legitimate threat of using it but fortunately not having too.

If you get a firearm, practice shooting a lot, pick a carry style or two and use only those, and practice drawing and firing with snap caps, and then at a range (only certain ones are made for and allow this) or safe shooting area drawing and firing. Why just a couple carry methods? Well if you carry your gun in a different way all he time you don't want to have to think "where is my gun today", also it is best to limit and get good at a just couple carry locations on your body, cause when the SHTF if you practice drawing you will revert into that training.

Lastly get your Concealed Carry Permit/License and be aware as someone said earlier, some states recognize other states license, some don't, this should be covered in your Concealed Carry training class, but if your are traveling out of state be sure you know whether you are legal to carry where you are going. Also each state's carry laws differ, so make sure that not only your concealed carry license is good in the state(s) you go, but you also follow that state's law while you are there. For example, in some states you can carry in a restaurant that serves alcohol (but you can't go to he bar section), but in other states you can't go into any establishment that serves alcohol. In some states you have to inform LE you are carrying immediately if stopped (speeding, running a stop sign, etc), while some states you don't have to inform during a stop unless asked. In short there is a lot of responsibility to carrying a concealed weapon, so do it right if you are going to and stay legal.

Hope hat helps a little and I didn't ramble to bad..... :)
 
#87 ·
Hope hat helps a little and I didn't ramble to bad..... :)
Good post!

It is easy to get sidetracked on these topics; but I think you answered the OP's question with a lot of good and relative information. Kudos.

Scott
 
#91 ·
I have a concealed weapons permit. My interest in firearms is separate from my interest in bikes and it never occurred to me to link the two. Carrying my firearm to me is like carrying my car keys or my wallet. It's just part of the daily routine.

If you're interested in guns and thinking on making a purchase, that's great. Take a gun safety class before you make a purchase. Maybe there's a range in your area that lets you try or rent firearms.
 
#93 ·
I have a concealed weapons permit. My interest in firearms is separate from my interest in bikes and it never occurred to me to link the two. Carrying my firearm to me is like carrying my car keys or my wallet. It's just part of the daily routine.

.
Agreed! Was asked once why I carried a BUG. If I don't I feel only half dressed. Too many years have passed now to change.
 
#95 ·
I don't have a handgun and a concealed weapons permit out of fear. I have it because it gives me options.

I've been divorced, in an accident with an 18 wheeler, shot, and threatened with death and bodily harm. I don't hold any particularly strong fear over something that may or may not happen.

I do like to have my options, though.

If I'm involved in a confrontation, I'm going to do everything I can to avoid that situation escalating. Everyone in the world, unfortunately, it's as reasonable as I am. Some of these unreasonable folks are determined to do others harm. That's why I have the option.

If I'm lucky, I'll never have to take that option.

(Oh yes: And making holes in paper targets is very, very therapeutic. ;) )
 
#96 ·
I'm of the mind that I can't kill someone. I have kids, I can't shoot a teenager who's in my house because he's broke and needs money for whatever reason. I can't justify killing someone who is out of options for money when I have more money than I need. I can't do it. I can't look at them and not see someone who was a young little boy like my kids who just doesn't have a great life.
With all due respect, you never know what you're capable of until faced with it. I have guns precisely because I had kids in the house and I intended to meet every threat to them with overwhelming force. They're all grown, but I still have the guns. And I'd still use them if I had to.

As to your "poor teenager" theory- most of the armed burglaries and home invasions involving victims of gun violence are perpetrated between young males age 16 to 26 where I live.

Most burglaries are completely unarmed - they're there to grab something of value and leave. Stealing and killing are different ball parks.
Please cite your source for this claim. The crevice between your hip pockets doesn't count.

I believe that 50 years ago people were sold a similar lie to buy bomb shelters.
50 years ago the threat of nuclear war was very real. Only an ignoramus would think otherwise. Sorry, but there's no nice way to say it.

Every time a democrat is elected you're told to "stock up now, because (Carter, Clinton, Obama) is going to take your guns. Every time a Dem is elected gun and ammo sales go through the roof and none of them have really fought for gun control. They've asked questions, but have their been bans?
What do you think happens when someone campaigns for office pledging to outlaw or seriously restrict gun ownership? As to whether there have been bans- the answer is YES, and several. Mail order guns have been banned. Fully automatic weapons have been banned. Magazines over a certain number of rounds have been banned. Certain ammo has been banned. "Assault rifles" (semi-automatic rifles that look like military weapons) have been banned in some quarters. The list is long.

There is a specious notion that the 2nd Amendment is about hunting or only applies to organized militias, which have been somehow conflated with our modern military. We have Democrat politicians (and some Republicans as well) advancing the notion that only the police and military should have weapons- exactly 180 degrees from the intent of the founders. They intended that we remain armed to keep our government afraid of us. They no longer are, because they have made any armed response to tyranny a lopsided contest. If you doubt the intent of the founders, just do a quick google search of the founders and the 2nd Amendment.
 
#100 · (Edited)
Should work directly with the mfg. on jamming issues like that. Normally they'll refer you to a local authorized gunsmith and if that doesn't do it then they'll usually have you send it back to them for repair.

They usually treat you pretty nice when something like that happens. Had an issue with one of mine and in addition to the actual fix, Colt ran it through their custom shop for my troubles. Has functioned flawlessly since then. Came back with a nicer/upgraded grip and much smoother action and a target showing a ragged one hole pattern.
 
#102 ·
Should work directly with the mfg. on jamming issues like that. Normally they'll refer you to a local authorized gunsmith and if that doesn't do it then they'll usually have you send it back to them for repair.

They usually treat you pretty nice when something like that happens. Had an issue with one of mine and in addition to the actual fix, Colt ran it through their custom shop for my troubles. Has functioned flawlessly since then.
I should had done that but we live and learn. That was the first hand gun I had purchased (from a shop). Just did not think about it but hey the guy that I sold it too gave me only $20 but less than what I gave for it so I was not too disappointed. Plus I really did not like it that well after I got it and tried it out. Decided to go a head an carry the .38 S&W for woods gun.
 
#104 ·
My cousin is dead because of gun violence.
http://www.2dca.org/opinions/Opinion_Pages/Opinion_Page_2009/October/October 09, 2009/2D07-5300.pdf

Google the phrase "People killed during home invasions" and read the stories. How many times do you see the phrase "This was not a random encounter"? I checked the stories on the front page and none of the killings were random encounters.

Guns don't make you safe. Not pissing off people and not keeping a lot of cash or drugs in your house will make you safe.
 
#105 ·
I read your link. I'm sorry for your loss. Your cousin is not dead due to gun violence. Your cousin is dead due to screwed up drama. The implement of destruction could have been just about anything. It could have been the knife. Trying to blame it on the gun is just silly, especially given what I just read.

I'm bowing out of this discussion at this point because, with all due respect, you probably have too much emotional baggage to discuss this subjectively - and that's to be expected.
 
#110 ·
How about a few positive headlines for gun ownership!

Armed Citizen in TX Stops Shooting Spree and Saves Cop by Making 150+ Yard Shot With a Pistol
http://deadlinelive.info/2012/08/07...es-cop-by-making-150-yard-shot-with-a-pistol/

Wisconsin Crime Stopped by Legally Armed Citizen
https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/cc...onsin-crime-stopped-by-legally-armed-citizen/

Armed intervention in Yakima saves man’s life
http://www.examiner.com/article/armed-intervention-yakima-saves-man-s-life

Stop or the Senior Citizen Will Shoot! Moment 71-Year-Old Gunman Shot Two Robbers as They Tried to Hold Up Florida Internet Cafe
http://lewrockwell.com/spl4/heroic-armed-citizen.html

Customer kills gunman during Jacksonville robbery attempt
http://jacksonville.com/news/crime/...ls-gunman-during-jacksonville-robbery-attempt


This link has several stories of armed citizens saving life with a gun.
http://www.kc3.com/self_defense/officers_peril.htm




I know the chances are remote.
But, if life gives me armed criminals; I plan on making dead/incapacitated criminals.

Scott
 
#111 · (Edited)
That goes back to, the problem is not the gun, people are the problem and the gun is the tool. If these problem people did not have guys then they would simply find another tool.

A gun in the hand of a hunter = Nice trophy on the wall or tasty deer tenderloin on the table.
A gun in the hand of an "undesirable" = crime

Fertilizer in the hands of a farmer = Good crop
Fertilizer in the hands of an "undesirable" = BOMB

If we outlaw everything that could have a bad outcome then we will all end up in a padded room in a jacket with too many buckles.
 
#112 ·
Just curious - this controversial topic has been open for a while, and is all good and fun and I don't think anyone's gotten their jimmies rustled.

Any topic that touches on religion gets closed quickly.
 
#114 ·
I have seen several topics of a religious nature that have not been closed.
And I have seen topics that do not touch on religion get shut down.

It isn't the topic; it is level of respect or more precisely disrespect.

If you start personally insulting people or using intentionally inflammatory speech the thread will be closed. (with possible infractions; depending on how severe the speech is)

If someone were to post a thread giving a respectful but negative point about religion, and the participants remained respectful; I doubt it would get closed.

If it weren't inflammatory it probably would not get many clicks or replies though.
Which is why most people who want to bash religion do so with the intent to piss people off.

The simple fact is:
People enjoy hating and being disrespectful to other people!
This isn't a left or right thing; it isn't black or white or religious or non-religious.

The fact that believe in God or post something that is respectful of God has no impact on your or other posters lives.

Yes some people think it is their place to question my reasoning capability and refer to my God as a "spagetti monster".

That is intolerance and it is intentionally disrespectful.
But, in some circles it is hate speech that is rewarded with laughs and false suggestions that the utterer is somehow being brave.

But, if you want a more specific answer as to this forum.
Keep it respectful of others and it won't be shut down.

Scott
 
#115 ·
The simple fact is:
People enjoy hating and being disrespectful to other people!
This isn't a left or right thing; it isn't black or white or religious or non-religious.

The fact that believe in God or post something that is respectful of God has no impact on your or other posters lives.

Yes some people think it is their place to question my reasoning capability and refer to my God as a "spagetti monster".

That is intolerance and it is intentionally disrespectful.
But, in some circles it is hate speech that is rewarded with laughs and false suggestions that the utterer is somehow being brave.

Scott
So it's OK to discuss killing people and the best weapon to use and how to justify the murder of someone.

Challenging religion, or bringing in other points of view, are an insult to you and need to be closed down.

FWIW, you obviously have not read a single thing about the Flying Spaghetti Monster if you think it's the same as your God. Not surprising, most religious people have a closed mind.

I can see now what kind of forum this is and it's not for me. Mods put their religious beliefs at the top of their censorship. Hey, great for you and all, but you lost another member. Not interested in a forum where murder talk is A-OK "Let's carry concealed weapons and study the exact circumstances that justify me killing someone." But stating that religion is fiction and worthless is not at all tolerated.
 
#113 ·
That is part of the terms and conditions of the forums. I feel that religion is something a lot of people can't talk about with out getting too worked up. I know I can and I am not offended by any conversation about any religion. If there is a topic I don't want to read/discuss, I just don't click on it. Some folks can't and feel that it is their life's duty to get people to not only see their point of view but make others agree with it. Even if it is religious, political, what oil to use, and how not to winterize your bike.
 
#116 ·
Cheesefood -

Man, here I go again...

I've ran forums since the Bulletin Board System days. I've no earthly clue what the religious beliefs of the forum operators here are. I -can- tell you that discussions of religious beliefs Don't End Well. This is a motorcycle oriented forum for discussing motorcycles. If the forum operators decide this isn't the place for a religious discussion, I can understand that. Don't take it personally.

I strongly suspect the topic at hand, given your personal experience, is making you upset. I understand. Take a step back and put it in perspective.

...For what it's worth, my cousin was a police officer and had a gun related death as well.
 
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