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Old 12-11-2012, 12:14 AM   #11
ksblaster
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Originally Posted by angelo View Post
Hey blaster - riddle me this. I am not an expert so a real question here. On "Twist the Throttle" every factory tour I remember and CERTAINLY the Kawasaki episode showed and said they do a factory test on each bike (though they only show sport bikes).

They run them on the dyno pretty hard and the results are paired with the serial number so each bike has a history ... bla bla bla.

If thecase for every bike, would that take care of the dealer start you described?
Yes, a dyno pulls a load to indicate power at the wheel. I would say from my experience with our dyno, we pulled it down to rated h.p. Like hooking your bike to a log and trying to go 100mph in top gear. There is nothing to "break in". I had a 1958 Triumph I rebuilt and original manual, breakin = "first 10 kilometers do not exceed 10 kilometers per hr.". Blah blah. What do people think, that break in is to grind the crank to round or scrap the cylinder to round? Someone forget to check the bearing clearance and we hope to scape some lead off going slow at first to fit parts togather?

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Originally Posted by whoaru99 View Post
I work for an OEM that uses lots of engines. I can assure you the engine has time on it before it gets to the dealer. If there is a problem with the engine it's not 5 minutes of idle time at the dealer that did it...and we absolutely do NOT authorize nor advocate intentionally "dusting" the engine to try to get the rings to seat.
I love these forums, we gather to conversate and end up in a debate. I'm sure a Stealer would recommend an expensive tear down with all the associated expenses to the owner.

I notice that already assumptions are being made about how the cycle is handled prior to the owner receiving it. Some assume all are dyno'ed, another knows how much the vehicle is ran prior to leaving the factory.

I have dis-assembled more motorcycles with bad rings than any other reason!
The customer "My motorcycle uses oil".

I have dusted 100's, every time a customer complains about oil consumption or states "my friend has a bike just like mine and he outruns me". First I ask "does you buddy weigh a 100 pounds less than you?". Do you think the dust goes to the crankshaft main journals? The engine is an air pump (I would say compressor but nit-pickers start their nittin). There is a seal between the air in the cylinder and the crankcase.

Last edited by Romans5.8; 12-11-2012 at 09:59 AM. Reason: merged posts
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Old 12-11-2012, 07:20 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by ksblaster View Post
I love these forums, we gather to conversate and end up in a debate. I'm sure a Stealer would recommend an expensive tear down with all the associated expenses to the owner.

I notice that already assumptions are being made about how the cycle is handled prior to the owner receiving it. Some assume all are dyno'ed, another knows how much the vehicle is ran prior to leaving the factory.

I have dis-assembled more motorcycles with bad rings than any other reason!
The customer "My motorcycle uses oil".
So it's OK to converse as long as there is no dissenting opinion?

No, on a situation as you described we'd likely just replace the complete engine, under warranty.

OTOH, you own the machine, do as you please with it. But, if it's in warranty and you want us to cover the bill then it's done as our engine and powertrain technical specialists/engineers suggest, and that's by mechanical repair/replace, not AJAX.

And yes, I know how and how much the vehicle is operated at the factory because I work at one of the factories of a very large OEM, and interface with engineering, manufacturing, and end of line test presonnel on nearly a daily basis.

Last edited by whoaru99; 12-11-2012 at 07:51 AM.
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Old 12-11-2012, 07:24 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by ksblaster View Post

I notice that already assumptions are being made about how the cycle is handled prior to the owner receiving it. Some assume all are dyno'ed, another knows how much the vehicle is ran prior to leaving the factory.

.
Not an assumption. They show it and flat our state that this is done to every bike. Perhaps the show Twist the Throttle and Kaw (along with other factory tours) are flat out lying. Perhaps not. Not an assumption. Just pointing out one report from one media outlet. Chill.
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Old 12-11-2012, 07:40 AM   #14
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Do you think the dust goes to the crankshaft main journals? ... There is a seal between the air in the cylinder and the crankcase.
Yes, I do think it. In fact the oil analysis of a dusted engine will show high silica amongst other things.

Yes, I do agree there is a seal, of sorts, between the air and oil but it's far from a perfect seal. That the oil gets dirty and contaminated by combustion byproducts, including particulate soot, means stuff gets past the rings and into the oil. Not only does that happen by blow-by, it also happens by the scraping action of the rings as junk inside the cylinder sticks to the very thin film of lube on the cylinder walls, gets pulled to the lower portion of the cylinder, and washed into the pan by the splashing oil.

Last edited by whoaru99; 12-11-2012 at 08:57 AM.
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Old 12-17-2012, 01:36 PM   #15
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Yes, I do think it. In fact the oil analysis of a dusted engine will show high silica amongst other things.

Yes, I do agree there is a seal, of sorts, between the air and oil but it's far from a perfect seal. That the oil gets dirty and contaminated by combustion byproducts, including particulate soot, means stuff gets past the rings and into the oil. Not only does that happen by blow-by, it also happens by the scraping action of the rings as junk inside the cylinder sticks to the very thin film of lube on the cylinder walls, gets pulled to the lower portion of the cylinder, and washed into the pan by the splashing oil.
You're right, sorta. Ever hear of a leak_down test? I've seen engines hold pressure like you'd swear they were perfect. The oil rings deliver ( via > oil galley to main to crank to rod to wrist pin to piston to oil rings ) the oil and scrape it off. Ever hear of perfect circle rings? I worked as fleet maintenance for a very large international cement manufacturing company after years as a marine-motorcycle-farm implement mechanic shop foreman. Particulates due build up OVER_TIME, NOT after a dusting. Besides, particulates are captured by the oil filter (depending on it's micron capture size). Also oil is to suspend contaminates like moisture which is alot of the funk in that oil. So, I have heard this debate again and again BUT, I have examined the rings, have you? Assembly line, "wham bam I'm done, time to go home". We reuild an engine, set it on the portable dyno, crank it on, load it down, run it until you can hear it cracklin from heat.....
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Old 12-17-2012, 02:40 PM   #16
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I don't work much with rebuilding engines aside from my own, personal things. My job focus is more about finding out why it broke in the first place. Root cause failure analysis type of stuff.

So yeah, suffice to say I've seen piston rings and other engine bits in ways most people have not, such as though SEM micro-analysis.

And, as far as more practical tests such as might be done in the field or at a dealership, yeah I've either done or seen done pretty much all of it.
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Old 12-17-2012, 05:08 PM   #17
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This has been a darn interesting discussion and has brought up possibiltys I had never considered. In 40 years of mechanicing I had never heard of piston rings rotating in such a manner that all gaps could line up and cause a blowby situation by thats exactly what the symptoms of my engine indicate happened. I'm going to go with that. BTW...it's still not blowing oil mist out the intake like it did for several months. Whatever the cause, it's gone.
Thanks for a great thread.
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Old 12-17-2012, 05:34 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Windburn Bill View Post
This has been a darn interesting discussion and has brought up possibiltys I had never considered. In 40 years of mechanicing I had never heard of piston rings rotating in such a manner that all gaps could line up and cause a blowby situation by thats exactly what the symptoms of my engine indicate happened. I'm going to go with that. BTW...it's still not blowing oil mist out the intake like it did for several months. Whatever the cause, it's gone.
Thanks for a great thread.
Still good news then. Keep riding that thing and us northerners will try to catch up to ya this spring!
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Old 12-17-2012, 07:35 PM   #19
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and piston rings rotating in such a manner that all gaps could line up and cause a blowby situation .
Not a chance.
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Old 12-17-2012, 08:17 PM   #20
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Also ring end gaps can some times rotate around to the same spot on the piston and allow pressure to get to the crankcase. I think that is why TOTAL SEAL rings came into being and if I remember right that is why I only used TOTAL SEAL on horizontaly opposed engines cause the weight of the uncut side would over time jiggle the end gaps to the top and cause blow-by.[/QUOTE]

Sorry, but I've just got to call

on that one
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