difference on fuel tuners/power commanders ?? - Page 3 - Kawasaki Vulcan Forum : Vulcan Forums
» Insurance
» Sponsors
Go Back   Kawasaki Vulcan Forum : Vulcan Forums > Motorcycle Models > Vulcan 900

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 12-02-2012, 08:08 AM   #21
MachU
Senior Member
 
MachU's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Ontario, Canada.
Posts: 145
Default

Does anyone know the reasoning for the two different part numbers at the power commander web site for the module in relation to year?, such as my 08 Custom , site says Powercommander V with Fuel & Ignition Adjustment, part #17-032, when you type in an 09 its say the required module is Powercommander V, part#17-015.
I realize the difference is one has an ignition adjustability, but why? do i really need it for my 08, or can i use the one for the 09 also?
MachU is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 12-02-2012, 09:34 AM   #22
tcrider
Senior Member
 
tcrider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: SE Florida
Posts: 176
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by R_W_B View Post
Most of all the pertinant stuff has been covered on this thread. I've had Doebeck on previous bikes with good results. It's a great product for the price and does give a boost in performance as well as cool down the running temp.

However I hear the PCV with Ignition adjustments will offer more performance increases for the Vulcans, since they give you the ability to adjust the lookup tables (before hand, by trial and error etc) on every cell and rpm range. Additionally you can advance the ignition in areas where you can get away without knocking. This gives you more ability to escape the oppression of the EPA.

Keep in mind any "auto" tune advertisement will only apply to bikes with 02 Sensors (my Vulcan has no 02 sensors). Also some units will sell you a bung and sensor to mount in the pipes yourself, this goes to a dash meter to give you a readout and even some will have the ability to adjust the bikes ECU in real time.

Also keep in mind if it's a narrow band 02 sensor (like most OEM ones are) it can only auto tune in the closed loop rpm range which is idle and cruising (no load ranges).

For load ranges the narrow band units bust out of closed loop (on acceleration) and run in open loop where the lookup tables are chosen based on input from the TPS, MAP and other sensors. They cannot be adjusted on the fly (or automatically in real time) in open loop. A narrow band sensor can only read whether the A/F is at stoich (14.7 for pump gas) or above or below. It cannot read how much above or below.

The more expensive units will supply a wide band 02 sensor which can then adjust in real time the A/F mix throughout the entire rpm and load range. A wide band sensor can read the actual A/F through a wider range, being able to decipher more than just above or below stoich. This gives it the ability to read what the mix actually is at any range and then adjust the ECU and injectors to the target A/F.
Ok. It's amazing the knowledge some of the member on this forum.. Thanks for sharing it...
I know the best route will probably be an auto tune like the powerpro or pcv. But can't spend that kind of dough...:|
So my options right now are the cobra fi2000 or the arlen ness cheap shot.. For what I understand this 2 come without connectors and need splicing,no problem, and don't need o2 sensors to be added. Correct?
If anybody can comment on this 2 options please do. I'm planning to order in the next day or so...
Thanks again for all your help..
Great people in this forum...
__________________
TCRIDER
08' CLASSIC 900
tcrider is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2012, 10:38 AM   #23
KenDawg
Top Contributor
 
KenDawg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Killeen, TX
Posts: 787
Default

RWB,

Cobras Autotune model does not require an O2 sensor.

KB
__________________
KenDawg
1SG, USA (Retired)
KenDawg is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2012, 10:42 AM   #24
chi-rider
Senior Member
 
chi-rider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Chicago
Posts: 166
Garage
Default

If you're not sure yet, you might want to go cheap and get a used fi2000 from ebay or someone on this forum. They can be gotten for $100 or so. You could do that to get your feet wet and learn how to do simple fi tuning. That's what I did and then I sold it to someone on ebay and upgraded to a v&h fuelpak. I chose that one since I have v&h pipes and their tech have been great at getting it dialed in.
Goodluck
Chi


Sent from my iPhone using Motorcycle.com Free App
__________________
2010 VN900 Classic-Blue
______________________
Cobra Standard Sissy Bar with Chrome insert
Baron Crash Bars
Kuryakyn ISO Grips
Kuryakyn ISO Highway Pegs
Kuryakyn Mini Silver bullet brake lights
Scoot Works Phat Riser II's
Arlen Ness Scalloped Big Sucker
V&H Pro Pipe
V&H Fuelpak
Saddlemen Profiler seat
Barnet and Galfer Stainless control cables
Cobra Passenger floorboards and bag supports
Chilhowee Leather bags
American Biker Tool bag
Chrome Breather filter
chi-rider is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2012, 02:04 PM   #25
R_W_B
Top Contributor
 
R_W_B's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Central Florida, 2011 Nomad
Posts: 573
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MachU View Post
Does anyone know the reasoning for the two different part numbers at the power commander web site for the module in relation to year?, such as my 08 Custom , site says Powercommander V with Fuel & Ignition Adjustment, part #17-032, when you type in an 09 its say the required module is Powercommander V, part#17-015.
I realize the difference is one has an ignition adjustability, but why? do i really need it for my 08, or can i use the one for the 09 also?
I can't help you on the part numbers, I would contact Dynajet and ask them. The ability to adjust the timing (advance or retard) at various rpms allows you to take advantage of a modified A/F mix more than without.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KenDawg View Post
RWB, Cobras Autotune model does not require an O2 sensor. KB
Hey KenDawg, I do not know everything, my brother does, if you don't believe it just ask him. But seriously I would much be interested to hear exactly "how" Cobra says they can "auto" tune without an 02 sensor. Reason is that without knowing what the unburnt fuel is coming out the exhaust the ECM cannot know how to adjust the mix for the target.

In open loop all the lookup tables (aka maps) have been engineered under controlled lab conditions. These are a "guide" for the ECM to use for a given engine. The ECM collects data from the sensors on the "going in" side and then makes a decision based on these pre-engineered maps.

After that the ECM know "nothing else" for sure without input from the exhaust. Some systems also have ION sensor circuits built into the coil to measure the current traveling across the edge of the flame of the combustion (a flame edge can conduct current). They do this by placing a capacitor in the coil to collect part of the collapse current surge on the primary side, and then releasing it very soon again to run across the edge of the combustion flame. This gives the ECM an idea of whether the spark is occurring in matching (or unmatching) characteristics based (again) on pre-determined and mapped data from an ideal scenario. This is used primarily for knock sensing on Harleys.

Without input from the exhaust, which to my limited knowlege can only be obtained currently from an 02 sensor, there is no other way to auto tune. The ECM and the Cobra etc has done "all" it can going in based on what it had at the time. I would love to hear where or how it's gonna get this data to further auto tune the machine.

What some of these ads will do is say they can automatically adjust the fuel mix richer than what the ECM has already done. That is not really an automatic anything, but rather they have only done the richening percent based on "their" ascertations. I was very pleased with the Doebeck I had on my Harley. It could be manually adjusted with a screwdriver. You could richen or lean the mix by "listening" to the engine after each adjustment.

But again to my knowlege the only way the ECM can "listen" is from data collected from the 02 sensors placed in the exhaust. But always ready to learn.

Last edited by R_W_B; 12-04-2012 at 06:21 PM. Reason: spelling
R_W_B is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2012, 05:44 PM   #26
tcrider
Senior Member
 
tcrider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: SE Florida
Posts: 176
Default

Ok. just bought the arlen ness cheap shot 18630. Which originally was in some sites only for Victory bike, some models anyway, but seems to fit the 900. Now I' m looking at installation diagrams, although I'm sure it will come with instructions, I'll like to find the right connectors and have quick pick at the instructions.
I'll keep looking and post results once a get it and installed.
ride safe..
__________________
TCRIDER
08' CLASSIC 900
tcrider is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2012, 06:43 PM   #27
Sojourner
Lifetime Premium
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Chiang Mai, Thailand
Posts: 1,129
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tcrider View Post
Ok. just bought the arlen ness cheap shot 18630. Which originally was in some sites only for Victory bike, some models anyway, but seems to fit the 900. Now I' m looking at installation diagrams, although I'm sure it will come with instructions, I'll like to find the right connectors and have quick pick at the instructions.
I'll keep looking and post results once a get it and installed.
ride safe..
If your new fuel manager comes with connectors that cut into the wire insulation, give them a toss. The connections will fail over time. Best to solder any connections to the existing wire loom.
Sojourner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2012, 07:39 PM   #28
bosco
Lifetime Premium
 
bosco's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Temescal Valley, CA
Posts: 1,331
Garage
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by R_W_B View Post
Hey KenDawg, I do not know everything, my brother does, if you don't believe it just ask him. But seriously I would much be interested to hear exactly "how" Cobra says they can "auto" tune without an 02 sensor. Reason is that without knowing what the unburnt fuel is coming out the exhaust the ECM cannot know how to adjust the mix for the target.

In open loop all the lookup tables (aka maps) have been engineered under controlled lab conditions. These are a "guide" for the ECM to use for a given engine. The ECM collects data from the sensors on the "going in" side and then makes a decision based on these pre-engineered maps.

After that the ECM know "nothing else" for sure without input from the exhaust. Some systems also have ION sensor circuits built into the coil to measure the current traveling across the edge of the flame of the combustion (a flame edge can conduct current). They do this by placing a capacitor in the coil to collect part of the collapse current surge on the primary side, and then releasing it very soon again to run across the edge of the combustion flame. This gives the ECM an idea of whether the spark is occurring in matching (or unmatching) characteristics based (again) on pre-determined and mapped data from an ideal scenario. This is used primarily for knock sensing on Harleys.

Without input from the exhaust, which to my limited knowlege can only be obtained currently from an 02 sensor, there is no other way to auto tune. The ECM and the Cobra etc has done "all" it can going in based on what it had at the time. I would love to hear where or how it's gonna get this data to further auto tune the machine.

What some of these ads will do is say they can automatically adjust the fuel mix richer than what the ECM has already done. That is not really an automatic anything, but rather they have only done the richening percent based on "their" ascertations. I was very pleased with the Doebeck I had on my Harley. It could be manually adjusted with a screwdriver. You could richen or lean the mix by "listening" to the engine after each adjustment.

But again to my knowlege the only way the ECM can "listen" is from data collected from the 02 sensors placed in the exhaust. But always ready to learn.
Certainly not an expert, but found this video that explains how the powerpro works without an O2 sensor. Its in the second part after the fi2000 explaination. In short, it uses the engines crank shaft as a continuous dino making adjustments based on the engines feedback. The speaker does a better job explaining the tuners process.
__________________
"Freedom is Loving what you do, and the ability to Pursue It!"

2010 900 Classic
bosco is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2012, 08:20 PM   #29
Sojourner
Lifetime Premium
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Chiang Mai, Thailand
Posts: 1,129
Default

Just a point of information, Doebeck makes the circuit boards for Cobra for their Fi2000 Powrpro.
Sojourner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2012, 08:55 PM   #30
KenDawg
Top Contributor
 
KenDawg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Killeen, TX
Posts: 787
Default

RWB,

I am not an engineer so I will refrain from pretending to be able to explain the process with any accuracy. I refer you to the company that manufactures Cobra's PowerPro autotuner via Bosco's posted video. Ride safe.
__________________
KenDawg
1SG, USA (Retired)

Last edited by KenDawg; 12-04-2012 at 08:58 PM.
KenDawg is online now   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.2

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:25 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Garage Plus vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.
Motorcycle News, Videos and Reviews
Honda Grom Forum Harley Davidson Forum Honda 600RR Kawasaki Forum Yamaha R6 Forum Yamaha FZ-09 Forum
1199 Panigale Forum Roadglide Forum Honda CBR1000 Forum Vulcan Forum Yamaha R1 Forum Yamaha R3 Forum
Ducati Monster Forum Harley Forums Honda CBR250R Forum ZX10R Forum Star Raider Forum Yamaha Viking Forum
Suzuki GSXR Forum V-Rod Forums Honda Shadow Forum Kawasaki Motorcycle Forum Star Warrior Forum KTM Duke 390 Forum
SV650 Forum BMW S1000RR Forum Honda Fury Forum Kawasaki Versys Forum Drag Racing Forum Ducati 899 Panigale Forum
Suzuki V-Strom BMW K1600 Triumph Forum Victory Forums Sportbikes BMW NineT Forum
Volusia Forum BMW F800 Forum Triumph 675 Forum MV Agusta Forum HD Street Forum Suzuki GW250 Forum
Yamaha Motorcycles Victory Gunner Forum Honda Vultus Forum HD LiveWire Forum Ninja H2 Forum