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Old 07-21-2012, 09:59 PM   #31
Romans5.8
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Remember this is throttle body injection, not true 'fuel injection', it's a set of injectors mounted inside the throttle body. It's a halfway point between carbs and fuel injection (what cars in the 80's had).

And, like those cars in the 80's, start up isn't as easy and smooth as TRUE fuel injection, so while those other reasons are true (fluid warmup, voltage, etc.), it's also needed to help it start smoother and not stall. Think of it like an automatic half-choke, because, essentially, that's what it is. The throttle remains in the same position, but it runs extra rich at start up.

Also, there is some virtue in letting any vehicle you have warm up for a minute before you take off. Not up to operating temperature or anything, but maybe hit the starter button before you fiddle with your helmet and gloves or whatever, give it a good 30-60 seconds. The reason is, that will get the oil pressure up, get oil circulated to the top, etc. Your engine can be 'starved' of oil in it's first few seconds of running, and if you immediately go from start up to a couple thousand RPMs + a load, it can, over time, wear out faster than if you had warmed it up. I don't think you're going to blow the engine up instantly doing it, but it's probably going to last you longer if you just give it a few seconds before start up.

Edit: Stickied, thanks to that great info on the idle set screw.

If anyone would like to do a write up on that, maybe tear down their own TB and take pics, let me know and send me a PM, and I'll replace this thread with whatever you write up (giving credit, of course, where credit is due to Mister Orangepeel for the discovery)
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Old 07-21-2012, 11:05 PM   #32
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I agree completley. I will stress again the necessity of a cold/high idle on these engines for all the reasons stated previous, which is why I was against removing the fast idle cam. Now, considering that Kaw considers 900-1000 rpm base idle to be loveliness for voltage and most importantly..oil press, I think a realistic high idle target rpm should be around 1500 rpm at max. For all witout a tach, like myself, just have a reponsible ear/feel for the revs....then enjoy!
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Old 07-22-2012, 06:01 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by DnKiKe View Post
Start up idle itīs high rpm for default to pre warm the machine and fluids, itīs only for that, the real warming of the 900's ocurs normally after ride for 30 mins, thatīs a real warm for this bike.

Your battery will drain power if you only do short trips during day, so itīs highly recommended that you almost every 8 or 15 days ride about 1 hour on higher rpm's to recharge battery fully.......thatīs a trick for all bikes.

Let the start up idle alone, thatīs only 2 mins, then the bike automatically goes down to the recomended factory settings (950~1050 rpms at idle)
Or you could invest in a BatteryTender to keep the battery full. In my experience, it also extends the life of a battery. Case in point, my old bike a 2003 Goldwing never got more than 2 years out of a battery; when I replace the last battery, I also bought a BT and kept it plugged in all the time. When I sold it in 2010, that battery was over 4 years old; evidence enough for me that it works. The 'plus' model is what I use on everything, which by the way, ranges considerably in price. I found them on line and paid around $35 including shipping. As far as fast idle, my V9 only is irritating during colder months. Sometimes, it never goes to fast idle, which is fine by me.
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Old 07-22-2012, 07:28 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by Clumpster View Post
Or you could invest in a BatteryTender to keep the battery full. In my experience, it also extends the life of a battery. Case in point, my old bike a 2003 Goldwing never got more than 2 years out of a battery; when I replace the last battery, I also bought a BT and kept it plugged in all the time. When I sold it in 2010, that battery was over 4 years old; evidence enough for me that it works. The 'plus' model is what I use on everything, which by the way, ranges considerably in price. I found them on line and paid around $35 including shipping. As far as fast idle, my V9 only is irritating during colder months. Sometimes, it never goes to fast idle, which is fine by me.
I think that's fantastic advice, people should definitely have their battery on a tender ESPECIALLY if they just ride on the weekends. That little bit of discharge during the week really beats it up!

However, it won't solve the fast idle. It's true that SOME fuel injection systems have a low-voltage fast idle setting (like when you turn on the A/C on your car), but I don't know that this is true of the VN900. When my stator went out and I was limping it home on battery power watching my headlights dim as I went, it remained at a low idle. The fast idle on these bikes is really just a warm-up / choke phase and nothing more. If it wasn't for it, cold starts would be tough and idling when the engine was cold would be low and rough. Not unlike a well-tuned carbed machine which might start without the choke, but will lumber along for a minute. Really this type of fuel injection on the Vulcan has almost as much in common with a carb machine as it does with true fuel injection. It's throttle body injection, which you might think of as an automatic, electronic, self-tuning carbeurater. The air and fuel enters the engine the same as it did with the carb, (wheras modern fuel injection seperates the fuel injectors and puts them closer to the intake valves, improving performance, especially cold weather performance as the fuel remains atomized when entering the cylinder, as opposed to when cold, flowing through the intake manifold, 'clumping' up causing a poor, rough running condition at start up, cured for on our bikes by running rich). So we have the same initial start up issues the bikes did except a computer (aka the fast idle cam) is doing the choking for us.

Fuel injection has actually been around almost as long as the internal combustion engine has existed, but one of the first electronic variations that is similar to what our bikes use (throttle body injection) was advertised as an "Automatic Carbeurator" by the manufacturer (I forget who...), I saw a thing where Jay Leno, of course, HAD that car and was showing the ad for it. In the 1980's it because "Fuel Injection" and then companies came out with "Direct Injection" or any number of terms to indicate the injectors were actually just outside the intake valve instead of buried in the throttle body (which also allowed them to move the throttle body and re-arrange the intake manifold for better performance). And now, they are just called cars. The last carb was in the 1990's and I don't believe there are any cars sold with throttle body injection anymore.
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2006 Vulcan 900 Classic LT "Couch-a-Saki/Mini-Bagger"

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Old 07-23-2012, 09:07 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by Romans5.8 View Post
I think that's fantastic advice, people should definitely have their battery on a tender ESPECIALLY if they just ride on the weekends. That little bit of discharge during the week really beats it up!

However, it won't solve the fast idle. It's true that SOME fuel injection systems have a low-voltage fast idle setting (like when you turn on the A/C on your car), but I don't know that this is true of the VN900. When my stator went out and I was limping it home on battery power watching my headlights dim as I went, it remained at a low idle. The fast idle on these bikes is really just a warm-up / choke phase and nothing more. If it wasn't for it, cold starts would be tough and idling when the engine was cold would be low and rough. Not unlike a well-tuned carbed machine which might start without the choke, but will lumber along for a minute. Really this type of fuel injection on the Vulcan has almost as much in common with a carb machine as it does with true fuel injection. It's throttle body injection, which you might think of as an automatic, electronic, self-tuning carbeurater. The air and fuel enters the engine the same as it did with the carb, (wheras modern fuel injection seperates the fuel injectors and puts them closer to the intake valves, improving performance, especially cold weather performance as the fuel remains atomized when entering the cylinder, as opposed to when cold, flowing through the intake manifold, 'clumping' up causing a poor, rough running condition at start up, cured for on our bikes by running rich). So we have the same initial start up issues the bikes did except a computer (aka the fast idle cam) is doing the choking for us.

Fuel injection has actually been around almost as long as the internal combustion engine has existed, but one of the first electronic variations that is similar to what our bikes use (throttle body injection) was advertised as an "Automatic Carbeurator" by the manufacturer (I forget who...), I saw a thing where Jay Leno, of course, HAD that car and was showing the ad for it. In the 1980's it because "Fuel Injection" and then companies came out with "Direct Injection" or any number of terms to indicate the injectors were actually just outside the intake valve instead of buried in the throttle body (which also allowed them to move the throttle body and re-arrange the intake manifold for better performance). And now, they are just called cars. The last carb was in the 1990's and I don't believe there are any cars sold with throttle body injection anymore.
Fuel injection has been around in limited fashion since about 1920; in 1957 AMC put it in the Rambler Rebel (Electrojector) on its 327 ci engine. The difference between a carburetor and injection is that a carb sucks in the fuel through a nozzle using the venturi effect, atomizing it as it comes in; whereas injection sprays it in under pressure through an injector nozzle(s). The Injectors would be in a body (one big injector) or in the intake manifold (one injector per cylinder). The newer Direct Port Injection engines typically don't have distributor. You can't say Throttle body like systems (TBI, which is a GM term) is not around anymore. In fact, systems are even made to upgrade older or racing engines. Did you know, you can still find new cars in third world countries with carburetors? We should call 'our' type Electronic Fuel Injection... as I understand it EFI with 34 mm Keihin Throttle Bodies (X2). So, I am not sure if Keihn or Mitsubishi makes the electronics for Kawasaki. I am not an expert, but I imagine fast idle is controlled by the ECU, based on input from a temperature sensory and simply holds the throttle open by some mechanical means AND injects more fuel, until the engine gets above a certain temperature. I would conclude that if the bike runs properly, fast idle staying on when it should not be on or staying on longer than it should, has nothing to do with the state of charge of the battery. I also will bet, that with an aftermarket air cleaner installed fast idle might not function as designed and furthermore, if it is particularly bothersome, that came about after the mufflers were debaffled or an aftermarket exhaust system was installed. At least, that is when it became bothersome to me, but like I stated earlier mine works OK now. Now that we are in summer.

Last edited by Clumpster; 07-23-2012 at 09:12 AM.
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Old 07-23-2012, 09:26 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clumpster View Post
Fuel injection has been around in limited fashion since about 1920; in 1957 AMC put it in the Rambler Rebel (Electrojector) on its 327 ci engine. The difference between a carburetor and injection is that a carb sucks in the fuel through a nozzle using the venturi effect, atomizing it as it comes in; whereas injection sprays it in under pressure through an injector nozzle(s). The Injectors would be in a body (one big injector) or in the intake manifold (one injector per cylinder). The newer Direct Port Injection engines typically don't have distributor. You can't say Throttle body like systems (TBI, which is a GM term) is not around anymore. In fact, systems are even made to upgrade older or racing engines. Did you know, you can still find new cars in third world countries with carburetors? We should call 'our' type Electronic Fuel Injection... as I understand it EFI with 34 mm Keihin Throttle Bodies (X2). So, I am not sure if Keihn or Mitsubishi makes the electronics for Kawasaki. I am not an expert, but I imagine fast idle is controlled by the ECU, based on input from a temperature sensory and simply holds the throttle open by some mechanical means AND injects more fuel, until the engine gets above a certain temperature. I would conclude that if the bike runs properly, fast idle staying on when it should not be on or staying on longer than it should, has nothing to do with the state of charge of the battery. I also will bet, that with an aftermarket air cleaner installed fast idle might not function as designed and furthermore, if it is particularly bothersome, that came about after the mufflers were debaffled or an aftermarket exhaust system was installed. At least, that is when it became bothersome to me, but like I stated earlier mine works OK now. Now that we are in summer.
It doesn't hold the throttle open, it enrichens the mixture to cause a high idle similar to a choke. Lots of fuel injection systems even in cars do the same thing to control idle speed.

You're right about injectors atomizing fuel of course, but on this bike the injectors are a jog away from the intake valves, so the issue is the fuel will un-atomize (dunno what the term would be) as it travels when the engine is cold. Again, same issue carbs have when cold. That's why it needs to run a little rich. If you bypass the fast idle, it will run real low and maybe a little rough for that reason. Maybe you'd prefer that over the fast idle, sure, but just be aware that on many days you won't just fire it up to a nice smooth low idle. Cold days may be tough to start.
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2006 Vulcan 900 Classic LT "Couch-a-Saki/Mini-Bagger"

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Old 07-23-2012, 12:15 PM   #37
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With all due respect fellas, I think we`re making a mountain out of a mole hill. This system is pretty simple, in that it really does hold the throttle open slightly to raise the idle (screw?), and the ecu might fatten up the mixture a bit upon cold start (air temp sensor?). Cold engines without all the bells and whistles of modern automotive type EFI (o2 sensors, mass airflow sensors,ect..) tend to run a little dirty/rough upon cold start. A slightly fatter mix and a faster idle speed has always been the default remedy for this, and thats exactly what our 9s do....just to the point of absurd from the factory!

Turn it down to reality and enjoy the sweet pipe music guys, ya dig?
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Old 07-23-2012, 06:51 PM   #38
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With all due respect fellas, I think we`re making a mountain out of a mole hill. This system is pretty simple, in that it really does hold the throttle open slightly to raise the idle (screw?), and the ecu might fatten up the mixture a bit upon cold start (air temp sensor?). Cold engines without all the bells and whistles of modern automotive type EFI (o2 sensors, mass airflow sensors,ect..) tend to run a little dirty/rough upon cold start. A slightly fatter mix and a faster idle speed has always been the default remedy for this, and thats exactly what our 9s do....just to the point of absurd from the factory!

Turn it down to reality and enjoy the sweet pipe music guys, ya dig?
That is what I am saying Orangepeel. The fast idle is a mechanical 'cam lobe' that PHYSICALLY holds what I will call the 'secondary throttle' open. Yes, the mixture is richened or fattened up, but the 'fat' mixture does not cause the idle to be high.

I have found that when my bike is hot; to avoid what seems like an unnecessary high idle, I do this: switch the key on and wait until the fuel pump stops, then crank it. Most of the time when I do this it doesn't do the 'hot' fast idle thing.
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Old 08-05-2012, 01:41 PM   #39
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Smile fast cold idle

I have a 2010 900 cl and I am(was) extremely annoyed with the fast idle and even asked my dealer how it could be changed. He said it couldnt!!!! So I dug into it one day and I did file .032 off the cam. I did not see the screw but the next time I do maintenance I will take note of the screw. My fast idle is 200 roughly above warm idle so I am happy with it now but may want to adjust when it gets colder. It is a mechanical fast idle as a few stated. My original fast idle was rediculously high. Next we need to figure a way to quiet the noisy fuel injectors. Nice thread
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Old 12-03-2012, 11:21 AM   #40
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I have adjusted my idle by turning the black knob on the front( or rt) side of the aircleaner housing
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