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Old 12-01-2012, 12:17 PM   #41
Romans5.8
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Originally Posted by whoaru99 View Post
Yeah, I still have a couple boxes in .45 ACP.

I'll never load them for self defense though. Not that they're any more deadly than the rounds you can get today, but some lawyer would have a heyday trying to paint you as solely intent on death and destruction for using them based on the old (but false) stigma the carry.
Your exactly right. Lots of conceal carry defense attorneys and instructors alike will tell you to NEVER use a single action weapon OR cock a hammer. These can be seen by zealous prosecutors as "agressive" and somehow call it not defense. "You had time to cock the hammer" or "the defendant slowly cocked the hammer and proceeded to execute the poor victim who had a accidentally broken into his home". You know they can twist things!

My grandpa used to own a gun store (before I was born!). He kept an old .44 special in his cash drawer. The first round was a light hand load with a full metal jacket round. If you are going to survive it, it'll be that round as it'll be through-and-through. The other 5 were the hottest loads he could handle with hollow point rounds. A police officer (they al bought their ammo there) that he was better off with JUST the hollow point rounds, as again the two different loadings could seem agressive or intentional.

He was robbed once, and he did draw his weapon once. But, there was also a police officer in the building getting ammo for his service pistol who fired before he got a chance to! Guess it worked out okay for my grandpa then! Lol.
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Old 12-01-2012, 12:23 PM   #42
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I am a big advocate of hollow point ammunition. My understanding of the law as it stands is that if you fire more than one round they can get you on the hook for excessive force. If I have to put someone down better make sure they stay down on the first shot.
It's a hard transition after having military training. Two to the chest and one to the head.


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Old 12-01-2012, 12:31 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by carthadys View Post
I am a big advocate of hollow point ammunition. My understanding of the law as it stands is that if you fire more than one round they can get you on the hook for excessive force. If I have to put someone down better make sure they stay down on the first shot.
It's a hard transition after having military training. Two to the chest and one to the head.


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Oddly, most police officers are trained to continue firing until the subject is on the ground. But you are right. You always hear about how "9 shots isn't self defense". But the fact is, a fatal shot to the chest gives a few seconds for an armed assailant to take a last stand. That's why a police officer will fire until they are on the ground, so they won't return fire or harm a civilian.
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Old 12-01-2012, 12:33 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Romans5.8 View Post
Oddly, most police officers are trained to continue firing until the subject is on the ground. But you are right. You always hear about how "9 shots isn't self defense". But the fact is, a fatal shot to the chest gives a few seconds for an armed assailant to take a last stand. That's why a police officer will fire until they are on the ground, so they won't return fire or harm a civilian.
For police officers yes I can believe that. But the legal part of my conceal carry class had a big focus on not firing excessive rounds. Ideally no more than two or three but the way the criminal and civil laws are written right now they could get you on tap for excessive force.


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Old 12-01-2012, 12:36 PM   #45
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The only issue I see...and I'm assuming none of you have probably ever exchanged gunfire...is that most people don't want to die and wouldn't rather die or risk serious injury instead of go to jail. If you have a gun pointed at you, the safe thing to do is to assume it's loaded. Most people have an instinct that tells them to stay alive.

Now, maybe there are a few guys out there who are willing to die for your TV. First assumption is that they're going to kill you regardless. I don't think that's the case, as life in prison isn't worth your TV either.

In reality, the gun itself is a deterrent, as is the potential outcomes:

1. Get killed
2. Get really hurt
3. Commit aggravated battery / attempted murder, probably get caught, go to jail.
4. Commit murder
5. Any mix of the above
6. None of the above
7. Walk away

If I merely point my gun at someone, they'll throw hands-up and/or run away. In that case, owning ammo would have made no difference.

If they reach for their gun they're hoping that, at close range, they're faster at retrieving their weapon and firing it accurately before me (who already has weapon drawn and aimed). If they know they're a faster, better aim and can kill me before I can, than owning ammo would have a small benefit but chances are I might lose because I'm facing someone with Navy Seals skills.

If they draw first and I pull out a piece I'm losing because I was not in the Navy, a SEAL, nor am I exceptionally fast. I'm a pretty good aim for a non-owner. Hell, even if I were 99% better I'm not winning that match.

If we're both already drawn upon meeting, my mind is better for survival than my ammo. If I fire, I could miss or he could also fire and one or both of us lose. More likely we'll figure out an agreement to walk away unhurt. Ammo would have some benefit here in case I wanted to take a large risk, but my chances of survival are just as good without ammo.


So owning a gun has an advantage, yes. Owning ammo has a small advantage. It's based on the assumption that Hollywood style drama will ensue and their will be an exchange of fire.
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Old 12-01-2012, 12:48 PM   #46
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Cheese.. well said.... BUT!!! the gun and the ammo are useless alone! And people get killed everyday over 50 bucks
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Old 12-01-2012, 01:02 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Cheesefood View Post
The only issue I see...and I'm assuming none of you have probably ever exchanged gunfire...is that most people don't want to die and wouldn't rather die or risk serious injury instead of go to jail. If you have a gun pointed at you, the safe thing to do is to assume it's loaded. Most people have an instinct that tells them to stay alive.

Now, maybe there are a few guys out there who are willing to die for your TV. First assumption is that they're going to kill you regardless. I don't think that's the case, as life in prison isn't worth your TV either.

In reality, the gun itself is a deterrent, as is the potential outcomes:

1. Get killed
2. Get really hurt
3. Commit aggravated battery / attempted murder, probably get caught, go to jail.
4. Commit murder
5. Any mix of the above
6. None of the above
7. Walk away

If I merely point my gun at someone, they'll throw hands-up and/or run away. In that case, owning ammo would have made no difference.

If they reach for their gun they're hoping that, at close range, they're faster at retrieving their weapon and firing it accurately before me (who already has weapon drawn and aimed). If they know they're a faster, better aim and can kill me before I can, than owning ammo would have a small benefit but chances are I might lose because I'm facing someone with Navy Seals skills.

If they draw first and I pull out a piece I'm losing because I was not in the Navy, a SEAL, nor am I exceptionally fast. I'm a pretty good aim for a non-owner. Hell, even if I were 99% better I'm not winning that match.

If we're both already drawn upon meeting, my mind is better for survival than my ammo. If I fire, I could miss or he could also fire and one or both of us lose. More likely we'll figure out an agreement to walk away unhurt. Ammo would have some benefit here in case I wanted to take a large risk, but my chances of survival are just as good without ammo.


So owning a gun has an advantage, yes. Owning ammo has a small advantage. It's based on the assumption that Hollywood style drama will ensue and their will be an exchange of fire.

You've obviously never dealt with a tweaker or anyone ballsy enough to break into your home, knowing that you can legally SHOOT them just for doing that, and decided to do it anyway. The problem with the logic of many law abiding citizens is that they think like law abiding citizens which is worlds apart from the thinking of people that would just as soon kill you rather than having to fight you in a court of law.

Recently here in quiet old Eugene, two guys decided to rob a coffee stand at gun point. The barista drew his Glock and they started shooting at each other. One guy ran off, while still shooting at the coffee stand. The other guy stayed and fought, even though initially he had cover and was safe from the barista, he ended up being killed. The coffee stand employee DEFINITELY would have been killed if he was not capable of returning fire.

Mostly I would say (like any competent firearm instructor) if you don't intend to use a weapon when it comes time, don't own that weapon. If you DO choose to buy the weapon, buy the ammo and learn how to use the weapon, that way YOU have the option whether you use it or not.

Last edited by Cyclesarge; 12-01-2012 at 01:11 PM.
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Old 12-01-2012, 01:34 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Cyclesarge View Post
You've obviously never dealt with a tweaker or anyone ballsy enough to break into your home, knowing that you can legally SHOOT them just for doing that, and decided to do it anyway. The problem with the logic of many law abiding citizens is that they think like law abiding citizens which is worlds apart from the thinking of people that would just as soon kill you rather than having to fight you in a court of law.
So someone breaks into your house at night. Their goal is to not wake you, get the stuff and get out. Advantage might not be in your favor - by the time you get your gun, get acclimated to the dark and awake enough to be aware the robber will either hear you and flea or aim. Locking your door, standing nearby with a baseball bat and calling the cops has a better outcome than firing at him.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyclesarge View Post
Recently here in quiet old Eugene, two guys decided to rob a coffee stand at gun point. The barista drew his Glock and they started shooting at each other. One guy ran off, while still shooting at the coffee stand. The other guy stayed and fought, even though initially he had cover and was safe from the barista, he ended up being killed. The coffee stand employee DEFINITELY would have been killed if he was not capable of returning fire.
Or, had he never drawn, would have never been in that situation. He could have easily lost the gun fight.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyclesarge View Post
Mostly I would say (like any competent firearm instructor) if you don't intend to use a weapon when it comes time, don't own that weapon. If you DO choose to buy the weapon, buy the ammo and learn how to use the weapon, that way YOU have the option whether you use it or not.
Again, 99% of the time nothing will happen. You're more likely to be killed by someone you know than a total stranger. There are VERY few burglary cases ending in murder of unarmed people (EDIT: Where the house wasn't targeted and murder already expected) - the goal is to get your stuff, not to kill you or anyone else. Homeowners insurance will cover loss. What's the most you could lose, and is that worth killing someone over?

The ammo industry wants you to buy their product so they love to share stories about massive gunfire battles to pump you up about one day being in a gunfire battle. It's no different than cigarette manufacturers wanting you to think their product makes you cool. Ammo makers want you to consume A LOT of their product at ranges in "training" for a battle that'll never happen. First off, most people just couldn't kill a person no matter how much they think they could. Second, most people will be too scared to fire accurately.

Police and military training aside, practicing shooting a gun is just a way to spend money on ammo and gun ranges where they display newer, shinier, bigger guns than you own. Yeah, owning loaded 12 guns makes your house SO MUCH safer than one gun or even a phone and baseball bat. Because when the time comes you'll be able to use all 12 together, right? Or you'll feel great about your kid pointing a weapon at someone and having one pointed back at them.

You're sold the fear of the drug induced black male gang member peforming a random break-in for the worthless junk in your living room, and then sold huge guns as a means to protect you from the black man. Then, lots of pretty ammo - because someone will make a decision to be hit based on what type of ammo you're using. Or they'll take the time to notice that your gun is a different brand and size than theirs. Here's a hint: getting shot by a tiny gun loaded with cheap ammo kills you just as quick as a bigger gun with the most expensive ammo.
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Last edited by Cheesefood; 12-01-2012 at 01:52 PM.
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Old 12-01-2012, 01:50 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by BigDog View Post
Cheese.. well said.... BUT!!! the gun and the ammo are useless alone!
Ammo itself does nothing. Gun by itself is pretty useful.

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And people get killed everyday over 50 bucks
You're not going to see someone waiving a gun at you from 100 feet away. If you get mugged you're suddenly going to feel a gun in your back or have a gun pointed at you at close range. Again, if you're a Navy SEAL then you know how to pull out a gun and fire and hit a man who's already got a gun pointed at you at close range. The rest of us don't stand a chance and are better off not challenging the nice man who can kill us at any time but hasn't so far.
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Old 12-01-2012, 03:49 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by Cheesefood View Post
The only issue I see...and I'm assuming none of you have probably ever exchanged gunfire...
Cheesefood, there's nothing wrong with contemplating and musing outcomes and scenarios for oneself or about anything in general from the comfort of one's own home office chair and keyboard but even you used the operative word "assuming" which is the point here.

You should also never assume NONE for I have had to do things that not many would want to do. In my case, my beliefs and convictions were to serve in the Corps and YES we did things in there that I never contemplated or mused about. I also did things I never thought that I would/could do but I had to do them when faced with certain never before contemplated situations as they presented themselves. Sure, anyone can contemplate or muse about what may or can happen as well as what may not happen because this is the only part of risk assessment that is safe. However, it is all mere conjecture and speculation at that point until the real life Fit hits the Shan. As a civilian I have had to draw on someone who drew on me first for no logical or justified reason(s) at all. Under no circumstances whatsoever did I or could I think about anything else except the immediate and present threat(s) to my life or the lives of others and it was only my instincts and training that eliminated such threat(s).

Likewise, you can NOT assume how you or others are going to act or react in any given situation with any amount of certainty. All we can logically assume is that we will only find out what we are capable of doing when or if the time comes to face an armed confrontation and if we are still alive after that then we will know whether we reacted or acted accordingly. This will be the only time when our reflections and conscience kick in to either justify or convict ourselves according to our morals, beliefs, values, the situation at hand, the other's person's actions and ad infinitum. I am not the type to allow nor wait for others to ASSUME anything about me and in turn impact my life. Only God has that right. In the matters of life and death if we assume for others or wait for others to assume for us then we have already lost the fight or our lives if someone is trying to take it. That is why the only thing I do advocate for myself is to be always properly trained, continually re-train and to always be prepared for worst case scenarios.

Furthermore, logic disappears when you are dealing with people who are not in command of their faculties and under the influence of whatever it is they are being affected and effected by whether it be physiological, psychological, chemical or a combination thereof. Look at the man who was biting off another man's face. If I'm not mistaken the cops had to shoot and kill that man for cannibalizing another person's face in front of all present and he would've eventually killed the person simply because he was deranged, enraged and past the point of reason. Then look at the disturbed-minded man whose cold methodical calculated shooting spree in the movie theater left innocent people dead and wounded in his wake.

The difference between these two men is that a gun stopped one from killing and a gun could have stopped the other from killing. Clearly these two men are individually different but both wanted to take someone's life for no justifiable or logical reasons at all. The problem is that there are many more just like them in this world and many who are far worse. So this is not about Hollywood Hero or Old West Gunslinger wannabes. It's about real life and facing real world issues created by bad and evil people. It's not about advocating violence or death either. It's about preserving and protecting oneself and the lives of those who do not seek violence, death and destruction. It's about standing up for what is right if you can. Nobody should ever assume anything about anyone or anything because you know that old saying about assuming right? It is clear that you perceive yourself a logical person based on how and what you write. However, based on classical logic alone the way in which assuming and assumptions are used within its parameters is acutely different than how you used them here.
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