Any car audio / speaker guys in the house?

[Romans5.8]

Originally Posted by C00lCountry

The guys have pretty much covered lots of great information here.
As far as bass goes could be a few factors in that.
The box or sealed area can be a huge factor.
I would get the sealing compart that mounts behind the speaker if the fairing is not sealed.
I personally would go with the 6x9 for the lower frequency response and higher sensativity ratings.

If I could hear bass on an electra glide with subs, I'm not going to hear it out of two 6x9's no matter what I do. As long as it has clean mids and highs, and is loud enough to hear on the highway, I'm happy. I have a nice system at home and one in my car if I want really excellent quality music. I want a fairing on my bike for the looks and wind protection, and I prefer the look of these bigger fairings anyway, and the stereo is a nice plus for longer trips!

I'd be ECSTATIC if I could get decent bass, but, every bike I've ridden with a stereo, some with subs, some with aftermarket 6.5" speakers, etc. All of them the bass disappeared as you got up to speed, even though it was clean and there was plenty of it at a stop.

Originally Posted by whoaru99

Running at full clean output (or put another way, running to the verge of clipping) an amp will average roughly 1/8 of its power output when playing music. Some genres and stuff that's heavily compressed can increase that duty cycle but it's a good all around number. This, coupled with that you're seldom going to be running the thing WFO, means there really isn't that much average power draw despite the amp's power rating.

You're better off to get a bigger amp and have clean power available than to undersize the amp and risk sending clipped power to the speakers. Not only does clipping sound bad but it can contribute to damaged speakers as well.

Okay so bottom line, the VN900 has roughly 6 amps of leftover alternator 'juice' per Kawasaki. (70 watts, 12 volts). I also have some extra tail lights on my tour pak (albeit LED), and I will probably convert my turn and tail to LED. So, with all of that in mind, do you still think an amp would be viable? Any suggestions on an amplifier?

Also would there be any realistic disadvantages to putting a 4 channel amp (if I went that route) in the tour pak? I could probably find a way to mount it in the fairing, but, the tour pak would be an easier mount. That would mean running the pre-amp lines under the tank back, and then the speakers wires back up to the fairing (and perhaps two more inside the tour pak to speaker pods, though I'm not 100% on whether or not I want to invest in speaker pods, definitely won't do it right away)

Alpine also has a 45W RMS x4 amp that is very small and wires inline with the stereo (using the stereos wiring harness for juice, and speaker level or RCA level inputs) so that's an option too for size.

[Vulcanrules]

Not sure if you wanted more advice on choosing speakers or head units. If you do, ask. Between myself and some others it looks like we can help you pick out some good stuff.

Im not a fan of Sony. Their amps were known to pop and their speakers are poor.

One reason to avoid an additional amp would be the complexity involved in installing one. Im not against it- just realize it will take more juice. In that case get a head unit with the ability to switch off the internal amp to cut the draw. Ive also heard the higher the voltage of the preouts, the louder your amp will play- although that again depends on how much your speakers can handle, if they are playing into a relatively sealed cabinet so as not to distort, etc. im probably adding a layer of complexity here unnecessarily.

Now as for additional install complexity- one reason to avoid mounting a small amp in the tour pack is the potential to pick up noise via the rcas, or worse- unshielded head unit wires used as amp signal leads.

So mounting an amp in the fairing is better from that angle, but does give more weight. In fact you may need to shim out your springs with preload and /or get stiffer springs with the weight of 6x9s, stereo, etc.






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[whoaru99]

Higher voltage of the preouts is mostly about the signal to noise ratio of the signal. But, yes, all other things equal a higher pre out voltage would play louder. Doesn't give you more power though, a 50W amp can still put out only 50W regardless if the input signal voltage is 1V or 5V. You're just going to hit that 50W at a lower point on the volume dial (unless you make up for it by reducing the amp's gain/input sensitivity but that's a whole 'nother topic).

[Vulcanrules]

So the takeaway message regarding speaker sensitivity and pre-out voltage: let them be more like ideals to shoot for but not to become too absorbed in.

In the real world on a motorcycle they may make only a tiny bit of difference in how loud and clear your system plays.

Go for a head unit you like the looks and functionality of. Go for one with built in crossovers.

If you are going to amp it, try to get a head unit that you can shut off the resident amp on (can others chime in on this idea please? Does it dininish power draw enough to warrant seeking out this feature in a head unit??) and use shielded RCAs.

If you see two head units you like, and you are going to run an external amp- get the one with the higher pre-out voltage. Otherwise don't even think twice about it- sound quality difference will be minimal at best.

Go for speakers that are "free air" or "infinite baffle" or rated for largest size cabinet space if your fairing isn't well sealed. Go for the highest sensitivity you can find in that design.

If it is well sealed- you'll find higher sensitivity (Db) options. The higher the better for greater efficiency.

Go after speakers that rate well in terms of sound in a similar application (free-air/IB, or sealed/small compartment/cabinet) with similar power.

If that level of research is ridiculous for your time/interest level- try to find a set that people like and then look at the power handling ratings for them. Particularly RMS. If its rated 125 watts RMS you definitely won't have enough power to make them sing with a resident head unit. They might sound good, but not as good as people who powered them correctly are saying.

Also- higher RMS means more juice needed in general. So get ones rated more conservatively.

If you like your highs bright: titanium or aluminum or metal-du-jour tweeters.
If you like them smoother and more laid back: silk dome or whatever fabric-du-jour. Not sure how many options exist in a weather resistant speaker.

In general- pricier head units will sound better. If you are comparing in store, and plan on using the resident amp on the head unit- the weight of the head unit can be a clue.

Now stereo manufacturers love to claim their amps (wether resident or external) are able to put out XXX watts. But they are usually talking peak watts. So you gotta look for the "continuous" rating. Not "peak". Peak means nothing but marketing lies based on something you'd never want to listen to (or could even hear- but that's another story).

And even with continuous, some manufacturers are conservative, some are nearly spot on, and others lie. Most are close in the better brands/non bottom end models.

So stick with known and better brands and the more expensive units. You will likely get what you pay for.

For speaker wire- buy whatever is on sale. Lamp cord is fine if you want overkill in terms of gage.

For power- get a beefy wire- and use the same gage for ground.

Others can suggest where to tap, where to put the fuse and if you should use a relay for greatest clean power.

Let us know how it goes!

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[Romans5.8]

Originally Posted by Vulcanrules

So the takeaway message regarding speaker sensitivity and pre-out voltage: let them be more like ideals to shoot for but not to become too absorbed in.

In the real world on a motorcycle they may make only a tiny bit of difference in how loud and clear your system plays.

Go for a head unit you like the looks and functionality of. Go for one with built in crossovers.

If you are going to amp it, try to get a head unit that you can shut off the resident amp on (can others chime in on this idea please? Does it dininish power draw enough to warrant seeking pit this feature in a head unit??) and use shielded RCAs.

If you see two head units you like, and you are going to run an external amp- get the one with the higher pre-out voltage. Otherwise don't even think twice about it- sound quality difference will be minimal at best.

Go for speakers that are "free air" or "infinite baffle" or rated for largest size cabinet space if your fairing isn't well sealed. Go for the highest sensitivity you can find in that design.

If it is well sealed- you'll find higher sensitivity (Db) options. The higher the better for greater efficiency.

Go after speakers that rate well in terms of sound in a similar application (free-air/IB, or sealed/small compartment/cabinet) with similar power.

If that level of research is ridiculous for your time/interest level- try to find a set that people like and then look at the power handling ratings for them. Particularly RMS. If its rated 125 watts RMS you definitely won't have enough power to make them sing with a resident head unit. They might sound good, but not as good as people who powered them correctly are saying.

Also- higher RMS means more juice needed in general. So get ones rated more conservatively.

If you like your highs bright: titanium or aluminum or metal-du-jour tweeters.
If you like them smoother and more laid back: silk dome or whatever fabric-du-jour. Not sure how many options exist in a weather resistant speaker.

In general- pricier head units will sound better. If you are comparing in store, and plan on using the resident amp on the head unit- the weight of the head unit can be a clue.

Now stereo manufacturers love to claim their amps (wether resident or external) are able to put out XXX watts. But they are usually talking peak watts. So you gotta look for the "continuous" rating. Not "peak". Peak means nothing but marketing lies based on something you'd never want to listen to (or could even hear- but that's another story).

And even with continuous, some manufacturers are conservative, some are nearly spot on, and others lie. Most are close in the better brands/non bottom end models.

So stick with known and better brands and the more expensive units. You will likely get what you pay for.

For speaker wire- buy whatever is on sale. Lamp cord is fine if you want overkill in terms of gage.

For power- get a beefy wire- and use the same gage for ground.

Others can suggest where to tap, where to put the fuse and if you should use a relay for greatest clean power.

Let us know how it goes!





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Thanks man! I appreciate the help.

I am debating between these two speakers;

Polk db691 - http://www.crutchfield.com/p_107DB69...1.html?tp=3384

Inifnity 6921M - http://www.crutchfield.com/p_1086912...M.html?tp=3384

The Infinity has a higher sensitivity rating, but the polks are a three way instead of a two way (with a claimed 'built in crossover). Both are rated 2-100 watts RMS. Polk also has a similar 6x9 that is 2.2ohms instead of 4, but it's quite pricey.

Thoughts?

I'm wrestling with the amp situation. I'm just worried that 6 amps won't be enough juice to handle it.

[Vulcanrules]

I can't comment on 2.2 vs 4 ohm. I don't know enough about ohm ratings. Someone else please enlighten us!

As for "built in crossover" we'll that's just marketing. Any 2 way (coaxial) or 3 way speaker is going to have that. It's just a couple capacitors to keep you from blowing the tweeters. So it does nothing to keep those bass notes from being sent to the woofer portion which will never produce it = less power and clarity for midrange and increased power draw. Sorry but you still would want a head unit with a built in crossover. Preferably one that is selectable.

I tend to like JBL products over infinity even though they are from the same parent company. Infinity usually sounds crisper- I happen to like warmer.

I also happen to prefer 2 way over 3 way because the highs can be over represented.

Polk speakers are hit n miss... And nearly everything deserves a listening test. Also don't go by reviews on crutch field or amazon too much. Better to ask on a car audio forum for guys with boats n such. They more likely are less easily impressed. Most anything sounds better than worn out factory/oem junk.

I picked up a $75 set of Logitech computer speakers/sub that sounded light years better than their $200-300 offerings.

I also had a Panasonic head unit that sounded better than my twice the cost alpine and tracked better too.

Give the car audio forums a second shot to find some opinions.

If you yourself aren't too particular than go with whatever you think matches your bike better. I bought an alpine with a blue screen for an amber dash car once. It sounded good but screamed aftermarket and was garish to look at at night.



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[Romans5.8]

Originally Posted by Vulcanrules

I can't comment on 2.2 vs 4 ohm. I don't know enough about ohm ratings. Someone else please enlighten us!

As for "built in crossover" we'll that's just marketing. Any 2 way (coaxial) or 3 way speaker is going to have that. It's just a couple capacitors to keep you from blowing the tweeters. So it does nothing to keep those bass notes from being sent to the woofer portion which will never produce it = less power and clarity for midrange and increased power draw. Sorry but you still would want a head unit with a built in crossover. Preferably one that is selectable.

I tend to like JBL products over infinity even though they are from the same parent company. Infinity usually sounds crisper- I happen to like warmer.

I also happen to prefer 2 way over 3 way because the highs can be over represented.

Polk speakers are hit n miss... And nearly everything deserves a listening test. Also don't go by reviews on crutch field or amazon too much. Better to ask on a car audio forum for guys with boats n such. They more likely are less easily impressed. Most anything sounds better than worn out factory/oem junk.

I picked up a $75 set of Logitech computer speakers/sub that sounded light years better than their $200-300 offerings.

I also had a Panasonic head unit that sounded better than my twice the cost alpine and tracked better too.

Give the car audio forums a second shot to find some opinions.

If you yourself aren't too particular than go with whatever you think matches your bike better. I bought an alpine with a blue screen for an amber dash car once. It sounded good but screamed aftermarket and was garish to look at at night.



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I'm planning on following your advice of a built in crossover (which is the high pass / low pass filters, right?), but I just wanted to know if the 'built in crossover network' meant anything. Figured it was just marketing.

JBL has a 6x9 marine speaker and it is also a 100W RMS speaker, but it has a lower sensitivity rating (91db) than the others. Which do you think is better? I too prefer warmer highs.

[Vulcanrules]

Yes resident electronic crossovers are also referred to as high pass and low pass.

High pass is if you use a separate tweeter (component speakers where tweeter and woofer are not combined like a 2 way aka coaxial). Low pass is for frequencies below mid range to send them to a sub. In this case you won't have a sub connected.

I just had a really funny thought.
Two actually...
Ahem...
If you can get a 5 or more band eq on a head unit, you can forget about high pass low pass stuff cause you can just cut the lower bands to enough of an extent that I doubt there would be much difference in power draw or clarity between that and a low pass crossover.

You asked something similar before but it was regarding a 3 band and that's just not going to cut the lows in the way you want (without effecting mids) unless you get a 3 band parametric EQ. That means you can select specifically which frequencies are over or under represented and cut or boost respectively.

You can really dial in your sound with a parametric eq. Including what those tweeters are doing. If they are too bright, you can diminish their volume relative to the rest of the speaker frequencies but note a shrill or harsh or metallic sounding tweeter will still be edgy- just not in your face.

Now here's the second funny thought: if you are connecting an iPod you can make a custom EQ setting just for your bike and save it I think.

Cause in the presets you usually can find a "bass reducer" and then use a resident (on head unit) 3 way or better tuner to dial up the mids if you need.

This won't help you when you turn on FM radio though.

Now as far as choosing a tweeter that is smooth- usually the larger diameter and fabric (silk or otherwise) will be smoothest/least "bright".

Geez why did I start talking about crossovers when the answer was much simpler!?






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[Romans5.8]

Originally Posted by Vulcanrules

Yes resident electronic crossovers are also referred to as high pass and low pass.

High pass is if you use a separate tweeter (component speakers where tweeter and woofer are not combined like a 2 way aka coaxial). Low pass is for frequencies below mid range to send them to a sub. In this case you won't have a sub connected.

I just had a really funny thought.
Two actually...
Ahem...
If you can get a 5 or more band eq on a head unit, you can forget about high pass low pass stuff cause you can just cut the lower bands to enough of an extent that I doubt there would be much difference in power draw or clarity between that and a low pass crossover.

You asked something similar before but it was regarding a 3 band and that's just not going to cut the lows in the way you want (without effecting mids) unless you get a 3 band parametric EQ. That means you can select specifically which frequencies are over or under represented and cut or boost respectively.

You can really dial in your sound with a parametric eq. Including what those tweeters are doing. If they are too bright, you can diminish their volume relative to the rest of the speaker frequencies but note a shrill or harsh or metallic sounding tweeter will still be edgy- just not in your face.

Now here's the second funny thought: if you are connecting an iPod you can make a custom EQ setting just for your bike and save it I think.

Cause in the presets you usually can find a "bass reducer" and then use a resident (on head unit) 3 way or better tuner to dial up the mids if you need.

This won't help you when you turn on FM radio though.

Now as far as choosing a tweeter that is smooth- usually the larger diameter and fabric (silk or otherwise) will be smoothest/least "bright".

Geez why did I start talking about crossovers when the answer was much simpler!?






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The 'bass reducer' mode is the mode I use with my 3.5" handlebar speakers right now. But, I intend to use a bit of FM and satellite radio, I'd like the head unit to be able to handle the sound from any source and drive it cleanly.

Okay, so it sounds like I have a winner for a head unit. Sony DSX-S210X. It has the 'clean' iPod integration I'm looking for (was looking for a rear USB port so I could hide the iPhone in a saddlebag, but in this case, the iPhone goes INSIDE the head unit, even better!) High and Low pass filters, 7 band parametric equalizer, sat radio compatible, 17 watts RMS x4.

So now I just need to make a final decision on speakers, and I'm weighing everything you've told me. Problem is there is a very limited range of options for marine grade.

Also still bouncing the amp idea around. I'm going to find out if that sony model allows the resident amp to be shut off.

[whoaru99]

If you're struggling with the power consumption worries, then you for sure want to look for higher sensitivity speakers.

For example, a 93dB/W/m speaker requires only half as much power as a 90dB/W/m speaker to reach the same volume. A speaker that is 100dB/W/m sensitivity requires only 1/10 as much power as a 90dB/W/m speaker to reach the same volume.

I'd think in an application like this where you need relatively high volumes to overcome road noise and have a limited (but adequate) power supply you'd want to look at sensitive speakers.

Gotta be careful though because sensitivities can have different measurement references. The Polk and Infinity speakers you linked earlier are excellent examples. On the surface it looks like the Infinity speaker is 3dB more sensitive than the Polk but, in fact, the sensitivities of those two speakers are equal. Here's why -

The Polk sensitivity is rated 93dB/W/m while the Infinity speaker is rated 96dB/2.83V/m. The devil is in the detail. The Polk is being driven by 1 watt of power (the "W" in the sensitivity rating) to achieve 93dB, but the Infinity is being driven by 2.83V. What's the big deal you ask? Well, since it's a 4 ohm speaker 2.83V actually equals 2 watts. So, it's not an apples to apples comparison to the Polk. If you normalize that back to 1 watt, same as the Polk, the sensitivity drops 3dB so on a level playing field both speakers are 93dB/W/m sensitivity.