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Old 11-06-2012, 06:08 PM   #41
whoaru99
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O

Whoru99 you do understand, every time I make a comment here I just lean back with a big grin on my face and wonder what you'll come up with next don't ya?
Huh? I was thinking the same thing about you. But, if you want to keep going we can. Statistically speaking, I've got quite a while left to jaw about it.

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Old 11-06-2012, 08:20 PM   #42
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In my infinite wisdom I call such a person, intelligent enough to make his own decisions and accept the consequences. Call him a future organ donor if you like but at least he's not a sheep. He made his own decisions.
A person can "make their own decision" to wear a helmet as well! (Well, in some states, but, that's another issue entirely).

I'm not disagreeing with your decision there, but, I do not think it's fair to say that those who wear helmets are sheep, and those who don't are independent. We have reasons for whatever we do. There are two main reasons for wearing a helmet, the biggest one is safety, and for some of us it's comfort too. (Perhaps not on a short jaunt but on a long, 600 mile day, a good helmet and windshield go a long way at reducing fatigue. So do gloves, sturdy boots, and comfortable but protective clothing in fact!). Everyone has their reasons, and even if that reason is purely safety, studies, or statistics, I think that's perfectly reasonable.

It's perfectly reasonable to decide that the rewards outweight the risks and to prefer to ride without a helmet as well. But, and I don't want to step on any toes here, but common sense and consistent studies show that helmets are indeed safer than not wearing one. If you choose not to, and are willing to accept those risks, go for it! I don't necessarily agree with those who think that helmets don't do anything and their chances are the same with or without however.

In my opinion, demanding everyone where a helmet is a little hypocritical. After all, riding a motorcycle is more dangerous than driving a car, but we all do it because of how much we enjoy it. Yes it's true, the safer decision is a car! Much the same with a lid. The safer decision is a helmet. But that might not be the right decision for you. You must weight risk and reward, benefits vs downfalls. For myself and others, it's a helmet and protective clothing, for some, it's a half-helmet, for others, it's no helmet. All valid decisions made by (typically made by I should say, we all know some exceptions to these rules) intelligent, clear-headed adults.

Every once in a while someone will tell me that not wearing a helmet is SAFER. I don't agree with that, I just don't. The evidence isn't there to support that. But if you want to tell me it's your right as an adult human being to choose not to wear it? I'm right there with ya! We need to remember that there are those who want motorcycling to be banned in this country and in many of our states because of the dangers. We shouldn't set precedents of individual safety outweighing basic rights.

I hope I didn't step on any toes with that, but that's how I feel about the issue. Just get out there and ride! I enjoy discussions like this though! As long as they don't turn ugly, no need to take it personal or insult people who choose differently than you. But there IS a lot to learn out there to help us all make the best decision for ourselves.

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OB I used this very argument at a staff meeting one morning because I got tired of being inundated with flawed misinterpreted figures from folks with their own agenda. Although I did it rather tongue in cheek they returned to the table the next morning with verifiable facts and a new outlook. Turned out the indisputable facts they were giving me the day before were in fact not so indisputable when the proper information was brought forth. We still came to basically the same conclusion but afterward they knew how and why the got there.

SWVA You got it brother. If the stats for the success of sex panther aren't good enough, nothing is. I'm starting to wonder about you.

Whoru99 you do understand, every time I make a comment here I just lean back with a big grin on my face and wonder what you'll come up with next don't ya? Ya did get the part about my wearing different helmets right? Doubt I would bother if I didn't think I needed one. All I needed was eyes and ears for that decision, not statistics. Good Lord! I just spent more for new leathers than I paid for my first car.

BTW, numbers never lie. i.e. the hospital statistics mentioned above. It's the source
You're right! Correlation DOES NOT equal causation. Correlation can simply lead us to investigate something. For example, if several students at a local high school develop lung cancer, some people wouldn't look farther than to say 'well, see, public education gives you cancer'. Others would investigate, find some old asbestos in the air, and find the causation, that caused the correlation!

With a helmet, we have a consistent correlation, which leads us to investigate things like fatal injuries. If you take all motorcycle fatalities, those without a helmet were 5 times more likely to have died of a head injury than those that did wear one. Incidentally, brain injuries are the number one cause of death for a motorcyclist in a crash! By investigating deeper, we can paint a picture that makes us reasonably sure that a motorcycle helmet is indeed safer, than not wearing one. Still up to you, of course, but I think the evidence is there. Furthermore, we have the important 'why', the reason, is helmets dissipate the energy of an impact and thus reduces the chance of a fatal or permanently disabling injury!

I'm like you, I hate misleading statistics. Especially when there is no 'why' attributed to it. The correlation only tells you where to look, it doesn't give you the answer. We must investigate the 'why', and evaluate WHY that correlation exists!
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Old 11-06-2012, 08:37 PM   #43
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I learned after two spills, surviving one by the grace of God, another with a broken leg, not to count the near misses, and having a friend and a relative in the hospital, that protective gear was for me. Believe me, I'm an independent person who has always marched to the beat of a different drum (except while in the USMC). But there's something about seeing someone laying in a hospital bed, with their wife sitting in those uncomfortable chairs, knowing that the insurance won't cover all the cost, not counting the recovery time at home and the lasting complications from the injuries, that opens the mind to the reality of it all. The word foolhardy comes to mind. And yes, I was foolhardy for 40 years with eight bikes.
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Old 11-06-2012, 11:37 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Romans5.8 View Post
A person can "make their own decision" to wear a helmet as well! (Well, in some states, but, that's another issue entirely).

I'm not disagreeing with your decision there, but, I do not think it's fair to say that those who wear helmets are sheep, and those who don't are independent.
I find it interesting you would care to comment on part of a statement and choose to leave out the most important part which is "and accept the consequences." You see, this is the important part that everyone chooses to disregard. Too often in today's society people feel the need to hold others responsible for their own actions. The thinking man accepts that responsibility to a fault, therefore cutting himself from the herd.

BTW as far as stepping on toes goes, it's a non-issue for me. I'm a big boy with steel toes who likes to educate himself through discussion. I'm just as happy as a in slop. Wife has mentioned a time or two, an incessant need for irritating others. Not sure what she meant.
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Old 11-06-2012, 11:45 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Syko View Post
I find it interesting you would care to comment on part of a statement and choose to leave out the most important part which is "and accept the consequences." You see, this is the important part that everyone chooses to disregard. Too often in today's society people feel the need to hold others responsible for their own actions. The thinking man accepts that responsibility to a fault, therefore cutting himself from the herd.

BTW as far as stepping on toes goes, it's a non-issue for me. I'm a big boy with steel toes who likes to educate himself through discussion. I'm just as happy as a in slop. Wife has mentioned a time or two, an incessant need for irritating others. Not sure what she meant.
I like discussion too. Especially with steel toed people who can disagree without insult! It wasn't left out by intention or anything, just, didn't type those particular words I guess.

And your right. People need to accept their own consequences. On another forum a person told me that 'If I thought I was ever going to crash I wouldn't ride', and proceeded to tell me that they don't wear a helmet, they just ride safely, and will never crash. Sounds like some good kool aid.

Again, if you're willing to accept those risks, then I'm okay with it, it just isn't going to be the decision that I make. Why? Well all the rough and tough guys will tell me I'm a scaredy cat. Sure, whatever. But for me, it's because I ride 15~20k a year, asphalt as hard, and I think it's the right thing to do! Protective gear as well.
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Old 11-07-2012, 06:04 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Old Syko View Post
I find it interesting you would care to comment on part of a statement and choose to leave out the most important part which is "and accept the consequences." You see, this is the important part that everyone chooses to disregard. Too often in today's society people feel the need to hold others responsible for their own actions. The thinking man accepts that responsibility to a fault, therefore cutting himself from the herd.
I agree with you in general about the personal responsibility thing but throughout this thread you're using it as a strawman.

As far as the last sentence, LOL, nice try but I think that's Sykobabble.
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Old 11-07-2012, 06:30 AM   #47
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BTW as far as stepping on toes goes, it's a non-issue for me. I'm a big boy with steel toes who likes to educate himself through discussion. I'm just as happy as a in slop. Wife has mentioned a time or two, an incessant need for irritating others. Not sure what she meant.
Is that supposed to be the forum equivalent of a "Beware of Dog" sign?
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Old 11-07-2012, 08:18 AM   #48
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... that's Sykobabble.
That's a good one!
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Old 11-08-2012, 01:08 AM   #49
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Sweeping statements about statistics meaning nothing in the real world is funny. Those statistics were born in the real world. But of course statistics can be manipulated. Thats not in question- we all know that to be true.

But someone simply stating that they wear a helmet to diminish their odds of serious or fatal injury as cause for this kind of sudden fit of contrarian diatribe is ridiculous.

It is reminiscent of a kid i knew who loved to proclaim that wearing a seatbelt in a car isnt safe because he knew someone who might have survived a crash if they had been thrown from the car. Mostly he just wanted attention and to demonstrate via his outlandish claim that he was therefore "an independent thinker". Others recoiling only seemed to support his sense of how wisely independent he was.

More simply put- he was a troll long before there was an internet to satisfy his fancy. I always wondered if he ever graduated to flashing women in his old age. Its all a ploy lest those types admit that without shock, nobody really gives a rats... Excuse me *fat* rats behind about what they have to say because they really dont think critically enough to transcend contrarian statements and make judicious use of facts at hand rather than reach for spurious arguments to support unusual claims. Its as if the more ridiculous the idea- the more the idea takes on a pet life of its own.

The objective isnt knowledge, its a feeling of knowledge. Of having one up on the other guy... Hence they get a thrill at the subsequent reactions because deep down they know its really about feeling clever and convincing themselves they dont care what anybody thinks while busily engaged in using others reactions to fuel their own sense of self distinction.

Pretty silly but to each his own.


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Old 11-08-2012, 08:05 AM   #50
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Wow, Vulcanrules, that sounds an awful lot like our current crop of politicians!
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