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A question about cooling systems and VV heat

14K views 77 replies 18 participants last post by  Scott_in_TX 
#1 · (Edited)
As I/we have discussed many times in the forum our bikes run hot. The Kam's kit and wrapping the pipes has mostly sorted out the rider discomfort. However as I have said in other posts my bike runs up towards the red line (Temp) a majority of the time and there are a couple of others experiencing something similar

I had engine ice and now a product available in Australia called 'liquid intelligence 115' it has a boiling point of 192 c. . The bike runs close to the red line on the gauge but the bike shows no symptoms of running hot.

I spoke to the Liquid Intelligence company tech's and they suggested that as the sensor for the temp gauge is high in the system it may in fact be reading water vapour trapped during the change over from OEM liquid. They have had this reported on a few occasions and once the water is completely gone from the system the bike runs normally again. Both my self and the dealer have checked there is no trapped air and have tried to ensure no water was left in the radiator on fluid changeover.

They suggested it isn't hard to "miss" and quite a/few custom cars and bikes as well as water cooled dirt bikes are often affected. They asked that I run the bike (idle) with the radiator cap of until it gets to about 100c, if necessary disconnect the fan so it heats up quickly. They suggested that doing this without letting it get to the red line should allow any trapped water in the system to evaporate.

Not being a mechanic myself what do others think? I guess this would also apply to engine ice users whose bikes run hotter then one would expect.
 
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#2 ·
I am not a mechanic, but something seems a little fishy with their explanations.

If you were running with engine ice; and the coolant temp was near red line. Then changed to another product and the coolant temp is still near the red line.
I would assume the new product is cooling similar to the engine ice.

Running the bike with the radiator cap off seems like a bunch of run around. If you have ridden it a few times with a warm up and cool off period; any vapor should have exited the system via the overflow. (I am assuming the liquid intelligence is not a water mix?)

As per RnR; pure water in a 16psi system, boils at approximately 260F; which is well above the first red line temp.
If this product is supposed to make the bike run cooler; why is it hot enough to create vapor in a pressurized system at all?

During warmer weather here in TX; I had a warm engine knock at idle.
My coolant gage could get a little past the last white tick mark; and the knock still would not be present.
I had to run it for about 30 minutes before it would show up. I believe that it was my oil temperature that mattered.
Only the top end of these 1700s are liquid cooled; I am thinking about focusing attention on better cooling for the oil.
I am definitely going to use full synthetic; and I am going to look for cooling fins for my oil filter, and maybe a cooling ring.

Scott
 
#3 ·
I have the engine ice, and mine rarely goes over the 3/4 mark even when sitting idling in traffic. When the fan comes on it usually just hangs below the 3/4 mark when sitting still. The stock coolant it would go to the red. Not since the engine ice. Even on a 110 degree day. Also I have not had any hot engine knocks either on throttle up under load, and I pull a trailer all the time.
 
#4 ·
Damn I wish I could say the same the bike is out of warranty and only has about 25000 miles on it and I'm sick of throwing good money at this one problem. I changed from Engine Ice for the same problem. My dealer suggested that under high ambient temps e.g. 90 + there may be a cavitation on the water pump but again that just means dollars. I stress that the bike does not appear hot just the gauge shows hot and all have been checked.
 
#5 ·
I have no knock under any acceleration; only at idle, when the engine has been warm for a while.

The issue is discussed in this thread.
http://www.vulcanforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15617

I have used a mechanics stethescope to isolate it to the top of the front jug.
The knock will go away if I increase RPMs.

Scott
 
#6 · (Edited)
Dozer... see if your dealer has an infrared temp sensor or some one else and see what the outside temp of the radiator is when you are showing hot. I have access to several really good ones.

Might not hurt to remove the radiator and ALL tubing and inspect them for partial clog from paint chips. Some have reported the floating paint chips in their coolant. I did not see any when I did mine. Remove the thermostat and see what happens. When I added the engine ice, while I had the tank and everything else off on the cooling system I checked my thermostat in hot water on a burner to see when it opened. I do not remember the water temp reading, but it was what it was supposed to be. (I cant remember yesterday lately much less a year ago.......)

By the way, I carry extra engine ice just in case I need to add to the recovery tank, and on antifreeze systems I carry a bottle of distilled water. Using tap water here you are asking for problems....

And yes.... it may be showing hot on the dashboard and not really be hot in the engine. Gauges are just a visual indicator and they can be off..... If your scoot is overly hot, you would know it by the seat of your pants and the way it is acting.

Just a couple of ideas anyway. When I have a cooling problem I always inspect the coolant tubes, and remove and check the thermostat and see what happens. (actually I do the thermostat first....)

Some scoots are easier than others, and I think the Voyager is fairly easy to do all that compared to other scoots I have owned.

I liked the Venture with no temp gauge. During one four mile long parade on a 110 degree day I thought it would get hot, but never acted like it was. Several of our group dropped out. But on the Voyager I think three gauges would be nice. Top of engine at water outlet, radiator inlet, radiator outlet.....
 
#7 ·
Dozer... see if your dealer has an infrared temp sensor or some one else and see what the outside temp of the radiator is when you are showing hot. I have access to several really good ones.

Might not hurt to remove the radiator and ALL tubing and inspect them for partial clog from paint chips. Some have reported the floating paint chips in their coolant. I did not see any when I did mine. Remove the thermostat and see what happens. When I added the engine ice, while I had the tank and everything else off on the cooling system I checked my thermostat in hot water on a burner to see when it opened. I do not remember the water temp reading, but it was what it was supposed to be. (I cant remember yesterday lately much less a year ago.......)

By the way, I carry extra engine ice just in case I need to add to the recovery tank, and on antifreeze systems I carry a bottle of distilled water. Using tap water here you are asking for problems....

And yes.... it may be showing hot on the dashboard and not really be hot in the engine. Gauges are just a visual indicator and they can be off..... If your scoot is overly hot, you would know it by the seat of your pants and the way it is acting.

Just a couple of ideas anyway. When I have a cooling problem I always inspect the coolant tubes, and remove and check the thermostat and see what happens. (actually I do the thermostat first....)

Some scoots are easier than others, and I think the Voyager is fairly easy to do all that compared to other scoots I have owned.

I like the Venture with no gauge. But on the Voyager I think three would be nice. Top of engine at water outlet, radiator inlet, radiator outlet.....

Thanks Mate,

The only thing that hasn't been done at this point is the infrared thermometer and inspecting the tubes. I guess if I go ahead with checking the water pump the pipes can be checked then. It has a new radiator with the Kams kit but was still playing up prior to installing it.

When I changed from engine ice to the liquid intelligence I removed plenty of fine particles from the overflow tank and the dealer drained and strained the coolant to remove anything left behind. As I said if it wasn't for that gauge I wouldn't believe it was hot.
 
#8 ·
If the seat of your pants and the machine itself is indicating it isn't hot. It's probably not as hot as the gauge indicates.. Just like a tach. I learned I can live without one of those too with the Venture. It would still fly without it.

One of our new guys stopped me one day doing 145 coming across a valley floor.....:cool:

Yes I was on my own scoot off duty....

(short story about that is, I was trying to catch a motor home that had lost its trailing car which left it upside down in the middle of the highway, cell phones did not work out there then, neither did our radios)
 
#9 ·
I tried the suggestion about running without the radiator cap and aside from blowing fluid everywhere it made no difference? I took the bike to the dealer a 35 mile ride at around 3200 rpm for most of the way. The temps stayed stable for the first 20 miles then ran up to almost the red over the last few miles. He did not have a infrared thermometer available but we both checked the engine chrome head covers radiator and top hoses. We found we were able to keep our hands on all parts, apart from the hoses for a few seconds. He connected the computer to the bike and found the sensor was transmitting the temps according to specs and the gauge responded accordingly. By reving the bike he was able to get the gauge and the computer readout into the red.

Yet again everything felt normal. Conclusion short of infrared temperature check is that the sensor for whatever reason is giving high readings either from trapped air or water once the bike has been at operating temps for about 20 minutes or more. So to put it bluntly
Stuffed if I know
 
#10 ·
My bike's temp gauge has never gone past where the radiator fan comes on. Even sitting for 5 minutes or more. Actually the fan is enough to bring the temp down and the fan shuts off.

It was time to service my cooling system so I decided that I might as well switch to engine ice. I followed the instructions on their website about flushing the system with vinegar and distilled water, and then just distilled water, before putting in the engine ice. I also filled it very very slowly so I would not trap any air in the system. That took a lot of patience for sure. I also squeezed the hoses to make sure there was no water trapped in them as well.

I won't know until next summer if the bike runs any better than with the OEM coolant, but I know it is safer for my barn cats and other animals if any happens to drip.

After the switch I let the bike run for 15 minutes at idle and the fan came on, the bike cooled and the fan switched off.

If you fan continues to run, or the temp continues to climb after the fan comes on, there is definitely something not right with your cooling system.
 
#11 ·
Dozr...

Wow... that really is a stumper.

If you are getting air lock, after a very very short time the engine would get hot as hell as circulation stops while the pump cavitates if in fact the pump is actually cavitating. But you can get air lock in parts of the system even while the pump is pumping away too.

Sounds like you need to know two things. What the actual water temp is in the engine at the sensor when you go into the red, and at the same time if water is flowing at the sensor. The only way I can see doing it, is yanking the sensor outand see if coolant comes out. But if it is air locked at the time, you will have just relieved the air lock by doing that and coolant will probably fly out..... A catch 22.

Does it ever come back out of the red while you are riding it?

I am still betting on faulty sensor system. Or least I am hoping that is all it is....
 
#12 ·
Dozr...

Wow... that really is a stumper.

If you are getting air lock, after a very very short time the engine would get hot as hell as circulation stops while the pump cavitates if in fact the pump is actually cavitating. But you can get air lock in parts of the system even while the pump is pumping away too.

Sounds like you need to know two things. What the actual water temp is in the engine at the sensor when you go into the red, and at the same time if water is flowing at the sensor. The only way I can see doing it, is yanking the sensor outand see if coolant comes out. But if it is air locked at the time, you will have just relieved the air lock by doing that and coolant will probably fly out..... A catch 22.

Does it ever come back out of the red while you are riding it?

I am still betting on faulty sensor system. Or least I am hoping that is all it is....

So am I Bubba, But all of the sensor system has been checked and re checked. Hopefully in the next week or so I can get it checked with the Infrared Thermometer to see what the overall picture is.

Everyone who has looked at it now is of the opinion that the engine and cooling system is fine it is just something in the sensor area that goes haywire, after a period of operation.

The temp holds perfectly until about 25 miles. then it starts to climb. Then the revs and distance and ambient temp dictate where above the gauge will sit. Once at that level whether near the red line or around the 5th line It will not come down until I have stopped for a while or get into a slower area where the revs get back down to the 2000 area.

Is there anything in the sensor wiring that could have been moved into a hot area giving false readings?

Doe anyone know if the ECU receives the reading from the sensor first then shoots it off to the gauge?
 
#13 ·
That kind of problem usually is something simple, outrageous, but simple....
 
#14 ·
I agree and I'm getting my size 10's ready to kick myself for not seeing the answer sooner once we find out what it is.

the dealer is onto Kawa Tech support chasing up the idea of the ECU as well as anything else they can think of so I'll keep you posted.
 
#15 ·
I did not see it but have you changed the tempurature sensor? Maybe it reads ok but after 25 miles and heat of the motor and everything it starts to change how it reads the coolant temp. Maybe something internal is going haywire in the sensor. If the infared tells you all is ok I would change the sensor and see what happens.
 
#17 ·
I checked my invoice's again and the sensor was changed, but I agree I'll get them to change it again.
 
#16 · (Edited by Moderator)
2011 heat

My 20011 gets hot enough to almost burn my right thigh.It even got up to 4/5ths election day in VA outside temp was 42. Kawasaki told me they are aware of this and have a fix for it $399.00 and they don't cover it under warranty even though the 2012 comes with it It is a kit you install for air redirection called KAMS -Kawasaki air management system.The tech was very rude and condescending also didn't give a dam what i thought. I'm selling mine on principle.:mad: I will go back to my 2003 classic. the best bike i ever owned.
 
#21 · (Edited by Moderator)
My 20011 gets hot enough to almost burn my right thigh.It even got up to 4/5ths election day in VA outside temp was 42. Kawasaki told me they are aware of this and have a fix for it $399.00 and they don't cover it under warranty even though the 2012 comes with it It is a kit you install for air redirection called KAMS -Kawasaki air management system.The tech was very rude and condescending also didn't care what i thought. I'm selling mine on principle.:mad: I will go back to my 2003 classic. the best bike i ever owned.
I must have gotten lucky - my 2011 doesn't get overly hot - Yeah its runs the guage to the right but never into the red and its comfortable to ride . . . Thinking of wrapping the pipes this winter, but I don't feel I HAVE to . . .definately don't need the KAMS . . . .

Beautiful riding out by you - I'll be blowing through this weekend - find a bike that works for you, and find a dealer that does . . . but before I go sell and take the loss - at least try spending $50 and an hour's time and wrap dem puppies . . .
 
#18 ·
Kim

Have you wrapped your pipes? If not do it.... the single best thing you can do. I dont need the KAMS kit now on my 2011.... After I get settled down after my move I want to ceramic coat them AND wrap them.
 
#19 ·
Kim

Have you wrapped your pipes? If not do it.... the single best thing you can do. I dont need the KAMS kit now on my 2011.... After I get settled down after my move I want to ceramic coat them AND wrap them.

I did wrap them and this made the bike great from the riders and passenger point of view :) but it still didn't solve the problem. So to let more heat dissipate via the exposed pipes I removed it and put the Kams kit on. Both methods gave excellent results as far as radiated heat, but unfortunately my problem remains :(
 
#22 ·
dozrtravlin
has any one actually fitted a proper diital temp guage in where the sensor sits and read it
can buy a cheap guage from autobarn and put in for a ride
i have a inferred temp reader but im up in queensland sunnycoast ,only a good ride away
also 2010 voyager gets 3/4 on the guage at idle but drops to just below half once moving
 
#23 ·
Your lucky, I' m about 4 hours south of you but apart from winter I've never seen the gauge running that low. The manufacturers of liquid intelligence are giving me 4 litres gratis, in case there is something wrong with the batch I have in it now. When that comes we're going to do a slow fill and checks as per the book, then try the digital thermometer to see just what is going on. My dealer spoke at length to Kawa tech support and they suggest the same. They also believe that my bike just runs hot, but within tolerance. So I told the dealer to make lots of notes because if it blows up I'll be chasing them.
 
#24 ·
fuel

i have changed exhaust and it made a massive difference in power but do have a hesitation around 3000 rpm ,looking at putting a fuel management system on which should cure that and reduce engine heat as we have a lot of crappy fuel her in ozz
you may even find fuel has a bit to do with yours
 
#26 ·
Dozrtravlin have you sorted out the heat issue problem ,I live in the northern tablelands if you need some help,swapping of parts, temp reader etc
Thanks mate still waiting for the new coolant, so hopefully this week sometime. I'll keep you in mind
 
#27 ·
Does anyone have the thermostat part no etc

Well I changed the coolant and rechecked everything. if there is an air blockage I'm damned if I know where.

That being said the temps are more under control now running between the 4th and 5th mark. What I did notice was that the gauge ran up to fan on then cooled down till cut off as you would expect but on the second run up to fan on, it stayed there, not coming down just creeping higher until it running between the 4 th and 5 th marks closer to the 5 th mark.

This occurrs at idle or when travelling, so once hot it satys hot, so I'm inclined to think the new thermostat is faulty.

So agree or disagree?

And

As I know little to nothing about thermostats hot cold or indifferent are there thermostat options that fit the VV eg to help it run cooler?

Thanks
 
#28 ·
just had the gear sensor for the dash replaced under warranty as it had a mind of its own ,
they had to drain the cooling system and lost a bit of oil
guess what now i have your problem running 3/4 on the guage and hard to get it to come down lucky to get to half way on the open road
taking it back tomorrow to see if something went wrong
 
#29 ·
Most are saying a air blockage somewhere but my question is where?

Both the dealer and I have followed the dealers instructions on refilling and bleeding, as well as Kawasaki's in their service manual and now every time I open the cap the fluid is right to the top where its supposed to be. I still get a lot of paint flakes out of the system and wonder if somehow these have gummed up the thermostat.

The dealer put a new thermostat in but I'm beginning to think it may be faulty. When the thermostat is operating correctly I don't have a problem, but once the gauge gets past the thermostat on mark the second time up it goes. I'd appreciate any info your dealer might be able to give. Mines at a loss and I'm just throwing good money after bad :mad: but at least now mine isn't going into the red anymore.
 
#30 · (Edited)
For your dealers info Kawasaki tech support has now told two different dealer I've been too that they believe Kawasaki didn't calibrate the gauges correctly and we have more of a visual then actual problem with temps. But that still doesn't explain the gauges resting very near the so called boiling points.
I also found this information
Care must be taken to ensure that all air has been bled from the system and in many cases the bleeding procedure will need to be carried out three or four times to remove all air. Incorrect coolants or coolant mixtures can also cause localised boiling in the engine and create air bubbles that will travel and cause the thermostat to operate incorrectly. If the engine has had major work performed check all engine earths and body earths as one may have been overlooked during the reassembly process. These earths can cause incorrect temperature gauge readings or cause the temperature sender unit or electric fan switch to operate incorrectly.

I'm not sure how to check all earths or how else to get Any residual air bubbles out. Any one got any ideas?
 
#31 ·
Hey DozrT,
I know I have mentioned oil before; but bare with me for a bit.

My Voyager is not going into the red...yet! I got it at the end of summer here.

But, I noticed (like you) that the first time the temp gauge gets warm; the fan is capable of cooling the anti-freeze back down.

Then the second or third time; the coolant stays hot.

My thoughts are:

*The coolant is designed to get hot fast and dissipate the heat fast.

*The oil takes longer to heat up and retains that heat longer.

*Only the top end of the jugs are liquid cooled. (the oil has very little opportunity to dissipate heat)

Finding a way to decrease the oil temperature should also reduce coolant temperature.

I don't know what you have in your bike. But the Puralator filters are a bit longer than OEM.
That equates to more oil; more surface area; more heat dissipation.

Synthetic oil is also supposed to run cooler.

When I changed to a Puralator filter and synthetic oil; I noticed a drop in the coolant temps by more than a quarter of a tic mark.

If next summer I am still not happy with the temp; I will look into one of those sleeves that fit on an oil filter that have cooling fins.

Scott
 
#32 ·
Our temps are not dissimilar to those in Texas (apart from the longer periods you guys have in near the Hundred mark. I have been toying with the idea of synthetic but prices for it are through the roof in Australia. I haven't heard of that filter and at the moment I'm using the K/n. Although the bike is a 2009 it only has about 25000 miles on it (i'm the second owner), most of those in the past two years. This gauge overheating has only occurred in the past year so I'm guessing something has failed or there is a doozy of an air lock in there that even the dealer has been unable to bleed out
 
#33 ·
sounds to me like you have a problem first check that your sending unit is good, it could just be that the sending unit is bad making the gauge read high.

Check that your fan is coming on that the relay is not bad or that the fuse is not blown if it is not.

You could try flushing your radiator and or replacing your hoses.

Do you have a Thermastat? check that it is opening and opening all the way.
 
#35 ·
The dealer has done all this twice and put in a new thermostat and sensor. Only thing I can think of now is faulty thermostat
 
#37 ·
OK Ray.... make us a external oil cooler that screws into the oil filter base and then the filter still screws on to it..... About a 3X4 grid should do. Hang it in front of the radiator. Or chrome it and we can hang it on the lower bars in the wind.....
 
#38 ·
On the front of the radiator chromed sounds good to me
 
#39 ·
I would be interested in an external oil cooler.:)

But, I will probably have one of these next summer.

Scott
 

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#40 ·
Just for kicks, I took a picture of the temp gauge on my 2011 Vaquero this morning. Keep in mind this is just after sitting at a red light for a while. I've seen the gauge get closer to the next white line, but never into the red.

For my part, I'm thinking I'm just feeling the engine heat more on this bike than I'm used to with other bikes.
 

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#41 ·
Hey Lunatic, whats the weather like in your neck of the woods?

My bike never gets to the last white line unless it is above 90F outside. Which in my parts is often enough! :)

Scott
 
#45 ·
Big engine/small cooling system. You can't keep a 1.7 liter engine cool with a two quart cooling system. There is no magical additive that's going to make a noticeable difference on the bike.

Once you stop moving the cooling system is quickly overwhelmed and you feel the radiated heat. If someone could design air deflectors that mount to the side of the bike which could redirect the air flowing around the bike towards the engine and rider that would help.
 
#50 ·
I ordered some replacement parts from Baker Air wings, make some brackets, mounted them to engine guard bars with three piece chrome mounts I got from local bike shop. In hot weather I pivot them so they bring air to the engine/riders legs area...wife says it makes a big difference. She will tell me to "turn the air on". In cold weather they provide extra wind deflection away from drivers leg area. Don't think it makes the bike rum much cooler, but it make the passenger happier.
 

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#46 · (Edited by Moderator)
There is its called KAMS Kawasaki air management system.My 2011 is still under warranty and it will cost $400.00 for this system. The 2012's come with it installed from the factory so they cant tell us they don't know there is a problem Come on guys stop trying to figure out if it's coolant,temp gauge, thermostat or whatever else you can come up with and complain to Kawasaki I did and they were rude and condescending and didn't give a darn what I thought. Maybe if more people complained they would do something. Kawasaki screwed up and doesn't want to pony up.simple.Pissed me off and I'm selling mine on principal and going to go back to my 03 classic. I'm damn glad I didn't sell it I realy would be pissed.
 
#47 ·
There is its called KAMS Kawasaki air management system.My 2011 is still under warranty and it will cost $400.00 for this system.
Here's a question though:

Is KAMS strictly a rider comfort modification, or is KAMS a addressing a cooling issue with the bike?

Personally, I'm of the assumption that KAMS is simply a rider comfort modification, and not something I'm willing to go all out on $ 400 for.
 
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