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: Just added BAK & Power Commander 3 at Kawasaki dealer


shawnturner
03-08-2010, 04:03 PM
I have the 2009 Kawasaki Vulcan 900 custom. I bought it last May of 2009 with Cobra speedster slashdowns. I liked the sound of bike better than with the stock pipe. I finally decided to add the BAK & Power Commander 3 to get the best performance out of the bike. I had the dealer do all the work. A few hours later and a bill of $236.00, I took the bike out for a ride. I noticed it took twice as long as before to start the bike. Before it would start right away but not now. I took bike out for about an hour through all the gears. Bike ran exactly the same as before. I could not feel any changes in the bike other than the hesitation starting. I have read how much of a difference it makes adding the BAK & Power Commander on many bikes but I cant feel any change at all. Is this normal? I guess I expected too much.:confused:

teamsunbelt
03-08-2010, 04:11 PM
Was 236 for parts and labor or just labor? You may need to adjust the settings. Plus, most post do not lead me to believe that there will be a huge difference. My near future plans are a BAK and Cobra Fi controller.

shawnturner
03-08-2010, 04:24 PM
$236.00 was for labor only. The BAK was $263.00 & $309.00 for Power Commander. The dealer loaded the map. I plan on calling them tomorrow to atleast resolve the starting issue. I just thought I would notice some performance in the bike after putting a little over $800.00 into it. Thanks for the reply!

Helek_52
03-08-2010, 04:30 PM
The guys will correct me if i'm wrong, but i believe when you replace the pipes, intake, and add the electrics, you're only going to get (at best) a 10% increase in HP. To me, IMHO, it's not cost effective. I expect a greater power gain than that if i'm laying out that kind of money.

On the other hand, if you are just doing it for cosmetic (visual and/or audible) reasons, then it's a judgement call as to whether or not you feel it's cost effective.

You need to realize just what kind of bike this is... a 900cc V-twin cruiser; not a 4-cylinder crotch rocket.

Shiloh
03-08-2010, 04:53 PM
Well, I added a BAK and Fuel Management with stock pipes and noticed some improvement in performance, not a lot, but a very noticable improvement in starting. As Helek 52 said maybe 10 percent increase in power.

I didn't use a Power Commander, and didn't have the dealer do it, but it clearly improved starting, which wasn't bad at all, but is clearly better now. That it is hard to start, well something is wrong, possible the map.

Something is a miss.:confused:

shawnturner
03-08-2010, 05:11 PM
I realize it is not a crotch rocket but I just wanted to get the best performance out of my bike. I expected to notice some change in riding and the bike always fired right up. I definitely like the look of the BAK though. I totally enjoy my bike & would not trade it in for any other bike. I just hope to get the starting issue resolved. Thanks for the replies!

whiting57
03-08-2010, 07:48 PM
As with any fuel injected bike when installing an air intake and fuel processor, pipes etc, the processor should be mapped, this is generally done by doing a baseline run on a dyno, fitting the accessories and then doing another dyno run, the mechanic then tunes and adjusts the fuel processor ( it should have both + and - adjustment capability) to suit both the HP and torque curves, this is a skill and not all can do it.

Many a layman will tell you go position 1 for this, position 2 for that , so on and so on ... problem .... not everybody has the same conditions, height above sea level etc, i am sure if you live in EL Centro California (sea level ) you will require different settings than if you live in Denver Colorado at 6000ft above, You should get a reasonable increase in HP and Torque for your money, the bike should start just fine, either they dont have the skill or equiptment to tune properly and by the sound of it are "just bolt on "specialists.

To give you an idea, i have seen a V Star 650 pull 10 + HP using a hypercharger and Cobra pipes, while this is carberated it gives you an idea of what professional tuning can do. The first Dealer that the bike was taken to couldnt tune at all and the bike was running so rich you couldnt even ride behind it, the bike stalled all the time and was hard to start, the second Dealer pulled everything off, started from scratch, baselined it, added accessories, dyno'd it again, tuned it , dyno again to check the tuning through the RPM'S , HP and Torque gain, and all was well .... $475 + tax later for a job that should have been done right in the first place.

Good luck, find someone with the skills to do the job properly and enjoy you investment.

Cheers

shawnturner
03-09-2010, 11:05 AM
I talked with the Kawasaki Dealer this morning. I told him that the bike runs fine like it did before I put the BAK & PC3 on. I let him know the only issue I notice is the 4 second hesitation with starting. Before it would start in 1-2 seconds. He said that is not a problem to worry about and that it would not burn up the starter. He said they could put another map on it with a different setup that I have on my bike which I think is totally the wrong direction to fix the start up issue. I have Cobra pipes not Vance & Hines and I have a BAK not a hyper charger. What the hell is he thinking. I think I would have issues with the way the bike would run with a different map.
He said they could have their Power Commander trained mechanics fine tune it for more $$$. They do not have a Dyno so I dont really think I trust them to get it right. I initially was going to buy the Cobra fi200r but the dealer talked me out of it.
I already spent a little over $800.00 and dont care to really put anymore money into it. I am considering taking the BAK & PC3 off and run the way it was before since I did not even notice any change in performance and now have a starting hesitation.
Thanks for the reply whiting57. I understand. I just wish I knew this before throwing that much money away. I thought I could just run with the map from Power Commander & it would run great.

whiting57
03-09-2010, 01:46 PM
Hey there, i wouldnt give up yet, ask around in your biking community and speak to riders who have simular set ups. There may be somebody who may be able to refer you to sombody, tuning is a gift and not everybody has it, I find it very hard to accept that no power gain is available on a properly tuned bike .. dyno or no dyno. Good luck Maurice

Shiloh
03-09-2010, 02:21 PM
I'm with Maurice, in that it can be done without additional expense, and done well.

The PC3 works from an internale map that tell it how much additional fuel to add or subtract from the pulse length information supplied by the OEM ECU. This is done by adding (or subtracting) a percentage of the pulse length to hold the injectior open longer (or shorter) time intervals.

Now, the ECU gets air pressure/mass data from an air sensor, and adjusts the pulse length based on the pressure (as well as other data items), so changes in altitude are handled without any change to the OEM or PC3 maps.

Given this fact, you only need to find a map for a PC3 Vulcan 900 that has your pipes and air filter setup. (And of course runs well!), without worring about what altitude they live at, within reason of course.

If you are looking to get the absolute highest power, then a dyno tune with EGA is the way to go.

If you are satisfied with the power, but want to get the starting corrected only, then you should be able to diagonose the starting issue as either a lean condition, or a rich condition, and then adjust the existing map accordingly. This assumes you have a laptop and the required cables/software to access the PC3 internals. Also there is a "zero map" which causes the PC3 to do nothing. You could load the zero map and see how it starts.

PC3 are not as easy to work with as the Cobra, Techlusions by Dobeck, etc, but they can proiduce good results, not optimum, but good results without a dyno.

Also post on the various forums looking for a map with your configuration, (or similar).

Don't throw in the towel, its can be setup without $$$.

ravnwood
03-22-2010, 01:48 PM
I have the same setup as you and noticed pretty much the same things. Been running with it for a year now, and am pretty happy with it though.

The bike used to fire up after 1-2 revs of the starter motor, now its about 4. I've noticed no other side affects other than it takes more revs to start it. I don't think this puts any undo strain on the starter motor so I don't worry about it. I think you'd have to stand on the starter for a while to really damage it.

I did a self install last year and took the bike for a spin right after and noticed... not very much. I think I was expecting this great increase in power, but lets face it, 10% is just not very noticeable. After riding on it for a while though I think it was worth the money. The pipes sound better and I love the look of the BAK over the stock air kit. I do believe that it gives me more-better power and keeps me from running lean. (When you put an aftermarket air cleaner on there the bike breathes a lot better and tends to run lean which can lead to problems.)

My biggest issue is the mileage decrease. I think my bike is running rich so I'm going to play around with the maps this season. Short of having it dyno'd and professionally tuned, all I can do is tinker. You shouldn't pay someone to upload maps. All you need is a USB cable and laptop. Grab the software and maps from the Power Commander site. I currently run map3, but am thinking of changing it to map2 to see if the bike still runs rich.

I always do a self install, but if you got both the PC3 and BAK installed for less than $300 that's probably a good deal. It's not hard but can be time consuming if you don't know what you're doing. Took me about 2 hours to do both and had to remove the fuel tank which can be intimidating to a newbie.

BTW, if they didn't install a crankcase breather you might want to pick one up. I got one for $10 at Advanced Auto. It keeps your crankcase from dripping oil into your air filter (and down onto the chrome transmission case). I used a fuel line coupler to extend the hose coming from the front cylinder over the top of the back cylinder and into the space between the engine and the battery box. Then use a rubber cap and hose clamp to cap off the hole in the back of the air cleaner. The other hose going into the back of the air cleaner is part of the evaporative emissions control system. Since we don't have motorcycle emissions regs in our area, I marbled that and stuck it back on there.

2008 VN900
Barons BAK
Power Commander iii USB running map 3 (M225-003.djm)
Cobra Speedster Slashdown (using quietcores)

Chaso56
03-22-2010, 10:23 PM
If you are interested there is an article in the new issue of Road Bike. They installed the BAK, Cobra Fi2000r and a set of Cobra speedster pipes on a 900 classic. They had it dyno tuned and got 11 1/4 HP and 7 1/2 ft torque. I have the BAK ,PC3 and stock exhaust with the stage 1 debaffleing. I also noticed that it seemed a little harder to start so I contacted Dyno Jet. The tech there told me this is normal after the install. He said to start it while the fuel pump is still pressurizing the system This did seem to help a little bit but it does start a little slower. The PC3 draws it power from the injector circuit and once the fuel pump pressurizes the system there is no power until the bike starts.

ChevelleSSLS6
03-22-2010, 11:26 PM
better than a crank breather is a length of transmission line. Attach it to the cylinder block, then up high under the fuel tank, have it (loosely) go over a fuel line (secured, wires I'm not so sure about) and down to the nipple on the air filter box.

Zero oil since then, no breather hanging out, and a lot less expensive...

NCVN1600
03-23-2010, 12:05 AM
I am getting ready to install the PC3 and Roadhouse Dooleys on my 1600 Classic. I will also be using a generic tune from Dynojet but as I have been told....maximum gains will not be noticed unless the system is mapped for the exact setup that is on the bike. My only advice would be to have the bike tuned on a Dyno to get peak results.

divehero
03-23-2010, 12:13 AM
Hey Shawnturner,

I hope things have gotten better since your post. I put on Cobra Power Pro HP 2 into 1 and the Cobra fi2000r on Saturday. I noticed a little gain, but not much. Today, I put on the BAK. There was a noticeable difference with the BAK. I would think that if it is dialed in right you will notice the difference. I didn't have any problems with delayed starting with any of the install.

ravnwood
03-23-2010, 08:41 AM
ChevelleSSLS6,

My crankcase breather doesn't hang out, and is well hidden behind the rear cylinder. The hose comes up along the fuel tank over the rear cylinder down to the crankcase breather behind it. Even coming up high like that there is some oil from the condensed fumes coming out of the engine. I don't want that going back into my air intake to be re-burned or dripping onto the tranny case so I put in a separate breather ($15 in parts if you include the nipple cover and hose clamp for the air cleaner).

Also routing it between the tank and the fuel line would make it a real pain to take the tank off. There is already very little clearance up there as it is to remove the fuel line from the tank and I would not want to crowd it up even more.

ravnwood
03-23-2010, 08:47 AM
NCVN1600,

I agree that having it dyno tuned is the best way to go. I coulda done that in Daytona for $200 but I didn't have time to wait on it. Also I am just not that interested in squeezing every HP out of the bike as possible. If I was, I would remove the Cobra quiet core baffles and go with the standard Cobra baffles. (I would rather forgo a few HP and skip the headaches and the scowls from my neighbors when I leave the house at 6:30 AM.)

I have some tuning to do because I think its running rich at times. Once I get that figured out I'm happy with the bikes power. Between the intake and exhaust mods and the front overdrive pulley, the bike does just fine.

By far the best performance mod to make to a VN900 is the front overdrive pulley from Scootworks. My bike used to struggle to reach 70mph and would suffer a lot of vibration. With a few extra teeth, it now easily gets to 90 or higher without any trouble.

(They also sell a rear pulley, but I think adding both would take too much torque away on the low end. )

whiting57
03-23-2010, 10:05 AM
If you are interested there is an article in the new issue of Road Bike. They installed the BAK, Cobra Fi2000r and a set of Cobra speedster pipes on a 900 classic. They had it dyno tuned and got 11 1/4 HP and 7 1/2 ft torque. I have the BAK ,PC3 and stock exhaust with the stage 1 debaffleing. I also noticed that it seemed a little harder to start so I contacted Dyno Jet. The tech there told me this is normal after the install. He said to start it while the fuel pump is still pressurizing the system This did seem to help a little bit but it does start a little slower. The PC3 draws it power from the injector circuit and once the fuel pump pressurizes the system there is no power until the bike starts.

The Hp and torque gain sound about right, around 20% increase over stock and a good return for a $800 plus investment, amazing what you get if it is done right. Its the old story, speed costs money ... how fast do you want to go and how big is your wallett !!!!

shawnturner
07-01-2010, 10:29 AM
Ever since I put the BAK, Power Commander 3 & Cobra pipes on at the Kawasaki dealer, I never noticed any gain in performance. Last Saturday I took my bike to Thunder Cycles to finally get it on a DynoJet.
The first test run was to find out if I even needed a custom map for the Power Commander. The before Max HP 48.38 & Max Torque 53.49. The air/fuel was really off. He told me I was dumping lots of fuel. I already knew that because I could only get a little over 100 mile on a full tank of gas. He said that I definitely needed to have it Dynoed.
After the Dyno Max HP 55.02 & Max Torque 55.71. The bike runs GREAT!! I can totally FEEL the difference!!! :D I am really happy with the custom map from having it Dynoed. Its like a different bike now. The throttle response is awesome. I am finally happy I finished the job.
Anyone contemplating getting their bike on a Dyno, JUST GET IT DONE!! You wont regret it. I payed $250.00 & think it was totally worth having it done.
I wish I knew what the Dyno numbers would have been when my bike was stock. I have tried to find stock HP & Torque numbers for my Vulcan 900 custom but I have not found accurate numbers. HP stock ranges from 41 HP - 55 HP.
Is there anyone on here that knows true stock HP & Torque for these bikes?

ravnwood
07-01-2010, 10:39 AM
Shawn,

Those sound like great results. You should post your map file for download.

whiting57
07-01-2010, 11:03 AM
Ever since I put the BAK, Power Commander 3 & Cobra pipes on at the Kawasaki dealer, I never noticed any gain in performance. Last Saturday I took my bike to Thunder Cycles to finally get it on a DynoJet.
The first test run was to find out if I even needed a custom map for the Power Commander. The before Max HP 48.38 & Max Torque 53.49. The air/fuel was really off. He told me I was dumping lots of fuel. I already knew that because I could only get a little over 100 mile on a full tank of gas. He said that I definitely needed to have it Dynoed.
After the Dyno Max HP 55.02 & Max Torque 55.71. The bike runs GREAT!! I can totally FEEL the difference!!! :D I am really happy with the custom map from having it Dynoed. Its like a different bike now. The throttle response is awesome. I am finally happy I finished the job.
Anyone contemplating getting their bike on a Dyno, JUST GET IT DONE!! You wont regret it. I payed $250.00 & think it was totally worth having it done.
I wish I knew what the Dyno numbers would have been when my bike was stock. I have tried to find stock HP & Torque numbers for my Vulcan 900 custom but I have not found accurate numbers. HP stock ranges from 41 HP - 55 HP.
Is there anyone on here that knows true stock HP & Torque for these bikes?

congrats on the gain, stock hp by the manufacturer is usually measured at the crankshaft (no dealer tells you that) probanly 41 hp at the rear wheel.

55.02 on a dyno is at the rear wheel, good gain

shawnturner
07-01-2010, 11:35 AM
Shawn,

Those sound like great results. You should post your map file for download.

The guy that Dynoed my bike ran out of disk's to burn my custom map on. I plan on going back up there this Saturday with a blank disk for him to burn it on. If anyone wants a copy, let me know & I wouldnt mind emailing a copy of my custom map.
This Forum is awesome! I have found great information on here.

ravnwood
07-01-2010, 01:48 PM
The guy that Dynoed my bike ran out of disk's to burn my custom map on. I plan on going back up there this Saturday with a blank disk for him to burn it on.

Do you have the Power Commander III USB? If so, just download the software from their website and plug your laptop (or other PC) into the USB port on the power commander.

I installed my PCIII USB right behind the battery box below the swingarm. I can easily fit a mini-USB down there and set the laptop on the saddle bags for testing and loading/unloading maps. There is an option in the software to save the installed MAP (which you should do, having paid $250 for it).

It also shows real-time idle speed which comes in handy if you want to adjust the engine idle.

shawnturner
07-01-2010, 01:56 PM
Do you have the Power Commander III USB? If so, just download the software from their website and plug your laptop (or other PC) into the USB port on the power commander.

I installed my PCIII USB right behind the battery box below the swingarm. I can easily fit a mini-USB down there and set the laptop on the saddle bags for testing and loading/unloading maps. There is an option in the software to save the installed MAP (which you should do, having paid $250 for it).

It also shows real-time idle speed which comes in handy if you want to adjust the engine idle.

I do have the Power Commander III USB. I did not know you could save the installed map like that. Thank you ravnwood!

ravnwood
07-01-2010, 02:03 PM
I do have the Power Commander III USB. I did not know you could save the installed map like that. Thank you ravnwood!

Glad to help. BTW, if your bike is a 2009 VN900 they may have put the PCV on there. They both work pretty much the same, I think, but would be a different software client on your laptop. Might wanna download both just in case.

I sent you a PM. Feel free to email me if you have need help.

xcbullet
07-02-2010, 11:37 AM
Ya I would like to see the map if its for the PC3.I've been making my own maps got it close.I can have it checked for 25$ so if your map feels better than mine I'll see if they can test both maps on my bike.

When I had the 225-002 map it was way rich 40% in one spot
tried the225-006 & it was closer but then took the high numbers down a bit & smoothed out the transitions from one to another a bit

I was trying to put it on here but couldn't

Pm sent

seandh07
07-03-2010, 09:30 AM
i have V&H SCS exhaust and dobecks techlusion fuel management. I plan on getting a standard series hypercharger, i can't see why i would need to spend another 100 bucks on the pro-r series, then gonna get it dyno'd and tuned. does anyone know good settings for the pots with the techlusion after you add these?

xcbullet
07-03-2010, 04:11 PM
Thanks Shawn for the map it is working great,seems to be in the power band every where now.Would probly be even better if I put the BAK on ,but am affraid it will stick out just a bit where it is sqaure instead of the curve like the stocker.

I don't think I'll even have it checked.I think the only way to improve it would be to spend the bucks on this bike like you did.

Ride like the wind

black903V
07-03-2010, 07:00 PM
Sounds like you got an almost 11hp. gain all said and done! I have been researching and found that (don't be dissapointed all) the stock hp. on a 900 vulcan at the rear wheel is only around 43-45 hp. depending on the actual vulcan 900 on the dyno. The 50 hp. stock that some will talk about is measured at the crank from the factory... Dunno about the torque. So your 10-11 hp. gain on a 45 hp. machine is friggin sweet! Like 24% gain I think (my math sucks):D

whiting57
07-04-2010, 11:48 AM
I don't care about your footpegs, grips, or any other little trinkets you may have!



that is way to funny LOL

stanriggin
07-02-2011, 09:38 PM
I read in this forum that someone was asking about after Installing PCIII on a Vulcan 900 that it takes longer to start. This is because the PCIII does not begin to activate until you start pushing the starter button. Where as before (factory) the Fuel Management System was ready to go when you turn the key on.

hayes
07-02-2011, 10:09 PM
don't have that problem at all. Mine starts just like before...

KenDawg
07-03-2011, 06:02 PM
Thanks Shawn for the map it is working great,seems to be in the power band every where now.Would probly be even better if I put the BAK on ,but am affraid it will stick out just a bit where it is sqaure instead of the curve like the stocker.

I don't think I'll even have it checked.I think the only way to improve it would be to spend the bucks on this bike like you did.

Ride like the wind

Actually, the stock air cleaner sticks out farther than the BAK. With stock, my right leg touches the aircleaner. With my BAK, I do not touch at all.:cool:

Sojourner
07-03-2011, 11:41 PM
don't have that problem at all. Mine starts just like before...
Something's wrong with the OP's setup. I've got the PCV and the bike starts instantly. The PC is up and running the moment you turn on the ignition. To prove it, hook up your laptop, open the DynoJet Power Commander program then turn on the ignition.

whiting57
07-04-2011, 09:09 AM
One mans map is another mans nightmare ....