Kawasaki Vulcan Forum banner

Not turning over

6K views 43 replies 9 participants last post by  sky_scr4per 
#1 ·
Hi folks, hoping to get some troubleshooting guidance - I've been reading a lot of old threads and seen a number of related issues, but nothing that's solved my problem yet. The short of it is when I hit the starter, loud click but doesn't turn over.

1992 Vulcan EN500, 17k miles

Saw the sticky about the two battery connections - have aftermarket battery and only see one - they are tight.
Have tried 2 batteries - one brand new and the other trickle charged strongly, so think I can rule that out.
Have removed and cleaned the main ground from the neg battery terminal.
Have checked all fuses including the 30.

With multimeter hooked up, voltage drops from ~13 to 5 or 6 when I hit the starter button - this doesn't seem right to me. I just am not sure what to do with this info.

Assuming it's an electrical issue or the starter, but would really like to concretely diagnose before I start taking it apart and throwing parts at the problem.

Backstory: Bought bike, took for 5 mile ride, everything fine. Seller told me oil change was due. Day 2, changed oil, coolant, new gas. Rode about 5 miles and died at stoplight. Restarted, rode 3 blocks, died. Restarted, rode 10 feet, died. Hasn't turned over since.

Thanks for reading. Ready to learn, hoping to get a nudge in the right direction.
 
See less See more
#2 · (Edited)
It appears that the immediate problem involves the battery, but that may be due to the bike's charging system not working properly or to a corroded or dirty connection. The battery voltage drop when engaging the starter is far too great. Also if not having already done so it would be worthwhile to check and clean cable connections at the starter and the starter circuit relay. After the battery has been fully charged and left to sit undisturbed for a couple of hours, what is the voltage reading?
 
#3 ·
If you have jumper cable, pull the battery and hook them up to the battery cables and hook the cables to your car and see what it does (no need to turn car on, that big battery should do nicely).

Clicking is usually from not having enough power. You could have 12-13V on the battery, but if it is out of fluid, which happens often on bikes, the amps will go out the window. I'm a little confused because you said you have tried 2 batteries but don't see the other connection, how is that possible?
 
#4 ·
Thank you both.

Current voltage is 12.75. The battery has been hooked up to the bike and undisturbed for ~15 hours.

The wires and connections generally speaking don't look great. There is some corrosion and some haphazard electrical tape where there shouldn't be. I figured replacing the entire wire harness would be a good idea but am hoping to fix immediate problem and put a couple miles on the bike before taking it all apart. I will clean the connections at the starter and the relay now though.

I'll also try jumping it from the car this afternoon.

As for not finding the second connection point on the battery: maybe I am missing something, but I am assuming the setup got changed at some point by previous owner - my battery has two little vertical posts that each have one horizontal hole for one screw, and the cables also have just one hole - so I couldn't figure out the relevance of the sticky thread in this forum when looking at my bike. I really hope I'm just missing something obvious here.

Thanks for your help!
 
#7 ·
Ah thank you vulcandoc for clarifying.

sfair - I've read through a number of the threads in which you've walked folks with similar issues through the troubleshooting process. I've got a Innova 3320 multimeter and if you've got the time, I'm happy to play along.

Thanks.
 
#8 ·
I thought you meant you couldn't find either the positive or negative cable, my mistake.

Not sure what he is on about. If you hook a alligator clip to a car battery and wire up to a light bulb, you aren't sending 7200 watts of power to the fan, it uses what it needs. The goal of using the car battery is to eliminate or confirm your current battery being an issue. I figured it was easy because you probably have on on hand, and it will most definitely provide enough amps for you bike.

Before I got a new yuasa battery I was testing my en500 with a miata battery. I don't see what possible "risk" there is. Disconnect your current battery (you really need to in order to get jumper cables on it anyway) and do not run the car, since I don't know if there is there is a discrepancy in voltage regulation and it is entirely unnecessary with a battery that has 2-3x the CCAs
 
#15 · (Edited)
Could you do the following:

1. Take voltage reading across battery.
2. Turn on key and take another reading.
3. Leave key on for 5 minutes and take another reading.
4. Turn off key for 5 minutes and take another reading.

Post back with 4 readings.

As an add, I will never instruct a poster to do anything that, in my view, poses potential risk to the person or machine when there is a better way.
 
#16 ·
How does using a different battery pose a risk to the person or machine?

sky_scr4per, if you have time today do a voltage drop test for the starter circuit. I guess you shouldn't bother trying a good working battery because you may blow up or your bike may be stricken with diabetes or some other unknown ailment apparently.

If you haven't done a voltage drop test before, just post back and I can tell you how or find you a helpful instructional link! Sfairs 4 reading could provide you some info on the battery, the voltage drop test will tell you if there is any excessive resistance in the starter circuit. I would also still check fluid level in the battery if you haven't already done so.
 
#18 · (Edited)
I'm "trying to bust you on it" because you are vehemently opposing something that you have yet to explain. You told OP and anyone who references this thread in the future that there is a risk to using a battery but haven't explained what the risk is or why it poses that risk.

I just don't think it is a good idea to tell people they shouldn't walk under a ladder because something bad may happen. If there was a simple principle the supposed risk was based on, you would have long ago mentioned it.

If you take offense to me telling OP he shouldn't do something because some magical fairies may burst out of his exhaust system and burn his house down, it is because you are recognizing how ridiculous that claim is and you see that it parallels your own. So you should either realize that that is what you sound like, and re-assess why you are making those statements, or prove to us why you are correct.


If you screwed up something in the past related to charging, jumping, w/e, then you should just assess what you did wrong to learn from it and pass that experience on. You are free to take away from it that batteries are magical devices that can't be understood and spontaneously break things, but you shouldn't make a point to teach other people ignorance.
 
#19 ·
, but you shouldn't make a point to teach other people ignorance.
Caught

Exposed

Uncovered as a charlatan (look it up)

After years and thousands of posts, it took McDowell to uncover the fraud that I have been perpetuating on this forum. It was fun as folks wasted time and money only to get nowhere with their repair.
Blind alleys and snake oil are my specialties.

I confess to only writing falsehoods and promoting poor practice in order to "teach other people ignorance". Hey, the dumber they are, the smarter that makes me look, correct?

I shall mend my ways in the future and stick to the areas of expertise:

1. Flashlight battery swapping.
2. Tricycle pedal oiling.
3. Running with scissors. (only successful on occasion)

If anyone needs assistance with the above, I can help with vague answers, generalities, conjecture and wishful thinking.
 
#20 ·
Personally I would never use a car Battery,Not that u can't,If I read correctly someone burned up a relay
Not a chance I would take,People agree and disagree on everything,lots of us don't have tools or know how,so that's y we ask Here
Handful of members really know the mechanics and electricals of bikes,Sfair being one of them
He does not believe in shortcuts,Like me ,lots of us just want to Ride,fix problems as fast as we can ,right or wrong,sfair doesn't work that way,read many of his posts,very meticulous at his problem solving,Imo
 
#21 ·
Which is exactly why I simply asked him to explain the risk he is talking about and the principle behind it. He actually said I was "calling him out" on it after I questioned him multiple times on it.

Why can't he just explain what the deal is, if he has so much experience?

There is no reason for this to be a "thing" I just asked him to explain why he said that.
 
#22 ·
See post #10, and second sentence post #17.

Battery boosting should be reserved for when you are 100 miles away from home and you left your key on.
At home, with the proper test equipment and the time, there are better ways.
No meter? We can help there too. Perfect chance to purchase a new tool and add to your skillset.
Have not had a single person turn that down yet.

As always, the original poster can look at the ideas and decide for himself what option works best, if any.
 
#23 ·
Here's the thing mcdowell92 -
What your asking COULD cause damage to the bike being worked on.
Yep you can do it and you know what you're doing and it works for you.

NOW if someone is unsure of what they are doing would you ask someone to do something that could cause troubles?

We arent there to help, no pictures, videos, or anything other than what is written here. And the first thing we are trying to do is help out. Dont get so upset about nothing.
 
#24 ·
Hi folks, thanks for the many suggestions. The joint where the wires meet the terminal connector is badly corroded - will replace that later today and proceed with the mutlimeter tests suggested above.

Wife is gone with the car for a couple days so happily I can just sit on the sideline of this debate over whether to try jumping it for now.
 
#25 ·
Voltage drop test: Voltage drops to 6.6 at the battery, 5.6 at the starter.

Starter gets pretty warm to the touch.

Fluids in the battery are good.

Will do the 4 battery readings tomorrow - after replacing the battery terminal, messing with it a bit and doing the voltage test, the resting voltage is 12.4 and seems like those readings will be more helpful with a fully charged battery.

thanks all.
 
#27 ·
In my experience the sign of a battery that is going on the blink is that when I hit the start button, I hear a series of rapid clicks form the starter relay. The next shoe to fall will be silence when the start button is pushed. Time for a new battery.

The times I have hit the start button and heard a single, clear click from the relay and then no turning of the starter, the problem turned out to be not the battery. It was the starter motor.

In my case, the starter motor brushes weren't making good electrical contact with the commutator. I don't think that is the problem in your case. Two things jump out at me. The big drop in voltage when the start button is pushed and, especially, especially, the starter motor getting warm. This suggests two possibilities.

One is a short in the starter motor armature. This would cause a big voltage drop and warmth due to excessive current flowing through the shorted circuit. The only way to test for this is with the starter out.

The other is that something is jammed or broken or seized that is preventing the starter motor from spinning or turning over at all and the electrics are okay but it's sucking a lot of current and getting warm under this excessive load.

So can this be related to why the engine died on you (mentioned in your initial post but kinda lost in the replies) and why it died again at shorter and shorter intervals? What I would do is to make sure you have a good battery and then do a bump start (there are videos on Youtube on bump starting) test to make sure the engine will turn over freely. If so, that points to the short in the starter armature as the culprit.

Or maybe it's just a bad battery or connections. I sure hope so. Taking out the starter is doable but not for the uninitiated. Anyhooo, this is like a good detective story with lots of twists and turns in the plot and I hope you'll keep us updated as to how it turns out.
 
#28 ·
Thanks all. An update:

Charged battery and did voltage drop test again just to confirm - same results - 1v difference between reading at battery and reading at starter when ignition is pressed (drops to 7v and 6v respectively).

I did take battery to a shop and have them load test when this first started. They said it was good. Despite that and b/c of the large voltage drop, I bought a new one anyways. Same results with both batteries.

Requested battery readings:
Off:12.7
On:12.38
On for 5 min:12.26
Off for 5 min:12.54


PI Robert, thanks for your post, that's really helpful. If you guys will permit me, I want to gather my thoughts here and consider the possible issues. Thanks for bearing with me and plz let me know if I've made some incorrect assumptions or am missing anything.

Bad electrical connections: No question, the wiring generally is not in great shape. But I have checked, disconnected, cleaned and reconnected all wires between battery and starter and the main ground point. Anything I'm missing, and are there other ground points that could be causing the issue I need to check?

Bad starter: No way to really know without pulling it and bench testing it. I'm fine with tackling that but would like to rule out simpler issues first. If I pull the starter and it passes the bench test, I want to proceed with seized engine assumption and not put everything back together and chase more electrical problems...

Seized engine: Is it safe/reasonable to bump start this bike? Have very limited hills to choose from near my house in the midwest (there is no way I'm getting the bike up to 20mph on one of them). I googled this on day 1 to give it a try and read that the positive neutral finder would make it near impossible. Is there another way to test for a seized engine, ie, turning the crank with a ratchet?

thanks.
 
#31 ·
I might need a little guidance, or it's bad news time.

Pulled plugs, put it in 1st gear, pushed it forward. Rear wheel drags along the ground.

Can't get it into a higher gear bc of positive neutral finder correct? Can't say I ever tried to push the bike along in gear before, so trusting you on whether failure to crank = seizure or not.


Bandit - voltage across terminals returns to where it was before pressing once start button is released, less 0.0X volts as would be expected.

Thanks!
 
#32 ·
I might need a little guidance, or it's bad news time.

Pulled plugs, put it in 1st gear, pushed it forward. Rear wheel drags along the ground
Instead of pushing the bike get access to the flywheel bolt. Remove the flywheel bolt access cover in the center of the left side engine cover. Under this access cover is the flywheel bolt that is 14mm. Put the transmission in Neutral and turn the wrench clockwise. It should turn smoothly with the spark plugs out. Anything else is not good.

Hope this helps.
 
#35 ·
The operation of the valve train while you are hand cranking the engine over could also cause some increases and decreases in resistance/effort needed to turn it. Do you hear any unusual sounds coming from behind the alternator cover as you're turning the engine over? I'm thinking maybe an alternator magnet coming loose and jamming up the works. I recall that being mentioned on this board as an issue with earlier 500's.

Can you give the starter one more try with the plugs out and the engine hand cranked to a low resistance spot? If you still get the big voltage drop and no rotation, I'm thinking it's the starter motor itself that is the issue.
 
#36 ·
Yes, plugs are out.

Definitely no unusual sounds coming from alternator or anywhere else.

Robert, thanks for the pointer on trying the starter with it adjusted, that was a good idea. I hand-cranked the engine to a number of different positions that felt mid-way through a low-resistance spot, and noted the position of the mark on the flywheel bolt. I can say with certainty that it is not moving at all.

So it sounds like the starter is most likely culprit. Before I pull it, just interested if anyone can explain why the issue arose the way it did - repeatedly stalling out:

Rode about 5 miles and died at stoplight. Restarted, rode 3 blocks, died. Restarted, rode 10 feet, died. Hasn't turned over since.
Thanks folks! Really appreciate the help and enjoying learning more about the bike.
 
#37 ·
Well to rule out IF the engine or starter is at fault.
Remove starter and hook to battery and see if it turns.
Stalling out like you posted would not be a starter problem since you stated it started every time AFTER it stalled out.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top