difference on fuel tuners/power commanders ?? - Page 3 - Kawasaki Vulcan Forum : Vulcan Forums
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post #21 of 33 (permalink) Old 12-02-2012, 08:08 AM
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Does anyone know the reasoning for the two different part numbers at the power commander web site for the module in relation to year?, such as my 08 Custom , site says Powercommander V with Fuel & Ignition Adjustment, part #17-032, when you type in an 09 its say the required module is Powercommander V, part#17-015.
I realize the difference is one has an ignition adjustability, but why? do i really need it for my 08, or can i use the one for the 09 also?
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post #22 of 33 (permalink) Old 12-02-2012, 09:34 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R_W_B View Post
Most of all the pertinant stuff has been covered on this thread. I've had Doebeck on previous bikes with good results. It's a great product for the price and does give a boost in performance as well as cool down the running temp.

However I hear the PCV with Ignition adjustments will offer more performance increases for the Vulcans, since they give you the ability to adjust the lookup tables (before hand, by trial and error etc) on every cell and rpm range. Additionally you can advance the ignition in areas where you can get away without knocking. This gives you more ability to escape the oppression of the EPA.

Keep in mind any "auto" tune advertisement will only apply to bikes with 02 Sensors (my Vulcan has no 02 sensors). Also some units will sell you a bung and sensor to mount in the pipes yourself, this goes to a dash meter to give you a readout and even some will have the ability to adjust the bikes ECU in real time.

Also keep in mind if it's a narrow band 02 sensor (like most OEM ones are) it can only auto tune in the closed loop rpm range which is idle and cruising (no load ranges).

For load ranges the narrow band units bust out of closed loop (on acceleration) and run in open loop where the lookup tables are chosen based on input from the TPS, MAP and other sensors. They cannot be adjusted on the fly (or automatically in real time) in open loop. A narrow band sensor can only read whether the A/F is at stoich (14.7 for pump gas) or above or below. It cannot read how much above or below.

The more expensive units will supply a wide band 02 sensor which can then adjust in real time the A/F mix throughout the entire rpm and load range. A wide band sensor can read the actual A/F through a wider range, being able to decipher more than just above or below stoich. This gives it the ability to read what the mix actually is at any range and then adjust the ECU and injectors to the target A/F.
Ok. It's amazing the knowledge some of the member on this forum.. Thanks for sharing it...
I know the best route will probably be an auto tune like the powerpro or pcv. But can't spend that kind of dough...:|
So my options right now are the cobra fi2000 or the arlen ness cheap shot.. For what I understand this 2 come without connectors and need splicing,no problem, and don't need o2 sensors to be added. Correct?
If anybody can comment on this 2 options please do. I'm planning to order in the next day or so...
Thanks again for all your help..
Great people in this forum...

TCRIDER
08' CLASSIC 900
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post #23 of 33 (permalink) Old 12-02-2012, 10:38 AM
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RWB,

Cobras Autotune model does not require an O2 sensor.

KB

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post #24 of 33 (permalink) Old 12-02-2012, 10:42 AM
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If you're not sure yet, you might want to go cheap and get a used fi2000 from ebay or someone on this forum. They can be gotten for $100 or so. You could do that to get your feet wet and learn how to do simple fi tuning. That's what I did and then I sold it to someone on ebay and upgraded to a v&h fuelpak. I chose that one since I have v&h pipes and their tech have been great at getting it dialed in.
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post #25 of 33 (permalink) Old 12-02-2012, 02:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MachU View Post
Does anyone know the reasoning for the two different part numbers at the power commander web site for the module in relation to year?, such as my 08 Custom , site says Powercommander V with Fuel & Ignition Adjustment, part #17-032, when you type in an 09 its say the required module is Powercommander V, part#17-015.
I realize the difference is one has an ignition adjustability, but why? do i really need it for my 08, or can i use the one for the 09 also?
I can't help you on the part numbers, I would contact Dynajet and ask them. The ability to adjust the timing (advance or retard) at various rpms allows you to take advantage of a modified A/F mix more than without.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KenDawg View Post
RWB, Cobras Autotune model does not require an O2 sensor. KB
Hey KenDawg, I do not know everything, my brother does, if you don't believe it just ask him. But seriously I would much be interested to hear exactly "how" Cobra says they can "auto" tune without an 02 sensor. Reason is that without knowing what the unburnt fuel is coming out the exhaust the ECM cannot know how to adjust the mix for the target.

In open loop all the lookup tables (aka maps) have been engineered under controlled lab conditions. These are a "guide" for the ECM to use for a given engine. The ECM collects data from the sensors on the "going in" side and then makes a decision based on these pre-engineered maps.

After that the ECM know "nothing else" for sure without input from the exhaust. Some systems also have ION sensor circuits built into the coil to measure the current traveling across the edge of the flame of the combustion (a flame edge can conduct current). They do this by placing a capacitor in the coil to collect part of the collapse current surge on the primary side, and then releasing it very soon again to run across the edge of the combustion flame. This gives the ECM an idea of whether the spark is occurring in matching (or unmatching) characteristics based (again) on pre-determined and mapped data from an ideal scenario. This is used primarily for knock sensing on Harleys.

Without input from the exhaust, which to my limited knowlege can only be obtained currently from an 02 sensor, there is no other way to auto tune. The ECM and the Cobra etc has done "all" it can going in based on what it had at the time. I would love to hear where or how it's gonna get this data to further auto tune the machine.

What some of these ads will do is say they can automatically adjust the fuel mix richer than what the ECM has already done. That is not really an automatic anything, but rather they have only done the richening percent based on "their" ascertations. I was very pleased with the Doebeck I had on my Harley. It could be manually adjusted with a screwdriver. You could richen or lean the mix by "listening" to the engine after each adjustment.

But again to my knowlege the only way the ECM can "listen" is from data collected from the 02 sensors placed in the exhaust. But always ready to learn.

Last edited by R_W_B; 12-04-2012 at 06:21 PM. Reason: spelling
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post #26 of 33 (permalink) Old 12-04-2012, 05:44 PM Thread Starter
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Ok. just bought the arlen ness cheap shot 18630. Which originally was in some sites only for Victory bike, some models anyway, but seems to fit the 900. Now I' m looking at installation diagrams, although I'm sure it will come with instructions, I'll like to find the right connectors and have quick pick at the instructions.
I'll keep looking and post results once a get it and installed.
ride safe..

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post #27 of 33 (permalink) Old 12-04-2012, 06:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tcrider View Post
Ok. just bought the arlen ness cheap shot 18630. Which originally was in some sites only for Victory bike, some models anyway, but seems to fit the 900. Now I' m looking at installation diagrams, although I'm sure it will come with instructions, I'll like to find the right connectors and have quick pick at the instructions.
I'll keep looking and post results once a get it and installed.
ride safe..
If your new fuel manager comes with connectors that cut into the wire insulation, give them a toss. The connections will fail over time. Best to solder any connections to the existing wire loom.
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post #28 of 33 (permalink) Old 12-04-2012, 07:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R_W_B View Post
Hey KenDawg, I do not know everything, my brother does, if you don't believe it just ask him. But seriously I would much be interested to hear exactly "how" Cobra says they can "auto" tune without an 02 sensor. Reason is that without knowing what the unburnt fuel is coming out the exhaust the ECM cannot know how to adjust the mix for the target.

In open loop all the lookup tables (aka maps) have been engineered under controlled lab conditions. These are a "guide" for the ECM to use for a given engine. The ECM collects data from the sensors on the "going in" side and then makes a decision based on these pre-engineered maps.

After that the ECM know "nothing else" for sure without input from the exhaust. Some systems also have ION sensor circuits built into the coil to measure the current traveling across the edge of the flame of the combustion (a flame edge can conduct current). They do this by placing a capacitor in the coil to collect part of the collapse current surge on the primary side, and then releasing it very soon again to run across the edge of the combustion flame. This gives the ECM an idea of whether the spark is occurring in matching (or unmatching) characteristics based (again) on pre-determined and mapped data from an ideal scenario. This is used primarily for knock sensing on Harleys.

Without input from the exhaust, which to my limited knowlege can only be obtained currently from an 02 sensor, there is no other way to auto tune. The ECM and the Cobra etc has done "all" it can going in based on what it had at the time. I would love to hear where or how it's gonna get this data to further auto tune the machine.

What some of these ads will do is say they can automatically adjust the fuel mix richer than what the ECM has already done. That is not really an automatic anything, but rather they have only done the richening percent based on "their" ascertations. I was very pleased with the Doebeck I had on my Harley. It could be manually adjusted with a screwdriver. You could richen or lean the mix by "listening" to the engine after each adjustment.

But again to my knowlege the only way the ECM can "listen" is from data collected from the 02 sensors placed in the exhaust. But always ready to learn.
Certainly not an expert, but found this video that explains how the powerpro works without an O2 sensor. Its in the second part after the fi2000 explaination. In short, it uses the engines crank shaft as a continuous dino making adjustments based on the engines feedback. The speaker does a better job explaining the tuners process.

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post #29 of 33 (permalink) Old 12-04-2012, 08:20 PM
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Just a point of information, Doebeck makes the circuit boards for Cobra for their Fi2000 Powrpro.
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post #30 of 33 (permalink) Old 12-04-2012, 08:55 PM
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RWB,

I am not an engineer so I will refrain from pretending to be able to explain the process with any accuracy. I refer you to the company that manufactures Cobra's PowerPro autotuner via Bosco's posted video. Ride safe.

KenDawg
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Last edited by KenDawg; 12-04-2012 at 08:58 PM.
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