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Reflash?

13K views 48 replies 8 participants last post by  Drifter 
#1 ·
Are there any new maps out there...yet? Anyone added a power commander or other brand of controller? Reflash seems to be the cheaper way. :smile2:

Any smart guy figured out a way to trick the computer to richen up the mixture some with a resister or some other way? :wink2:
 
#5 ·
K9, where did you get it and what was the cost, is it plug and play? Is the stock AFR set around 14.7 or so?

It seems to me the off idle and lower rpm could really use some richening maybe lessen the vibes in the 55-65 mph area which seems to have a high frequency buzz that numbs your hands that is where I spend most of my time. 70 on up nice and smooth.

Do your bikes vibrate more in this speed range?
 
#8 ·
In my reading and searching I ran across a device called a BoosterPlug.com this guy from Denmark invented this to cure the over lean running conditions on most all new bikes. I went to his website and read the detailed description of what it is and does, I am impressed! Even better its a plug and play for 150 USD. Check it out!
 
#9 · (Edited)
This is interesting and I look forward to someone testing this out...definitely would rather spend money on this than $350+ on Power Commander when I actually get my Vulcan one of these days.

Will this auto-compensate for new mods like a different air filter and different exhaust if I got this for a stock bike?
 
#10 ·
The Magnum Dyna Boost needs to be spliced into the wiring - I used the number plate wire as feed, the ground to negative battery terminal, the Air temp sensor splice in under the tank & the O2 sensor close to the sensor plug, just above the clutch

The AxFIED is a plu&play, but they don't do one for Kwakas

Both "spoof" the O2 into thinking the O2 is 14.7, when it's actually closer to 13.8 (the ideal)

The Pulstar Spark plugs are more expensive than ordinary/iridium plugs - however they do improve performance - there is virtually no vibration at any rpm

That's one of the reasons I fitted the gear indicator as I was always looking for 7th or 8th gear

Being able to "spoof" the O2 allows the ecu to do it's thing - the Power Commander does not the settings are fixed, so work perfectly within very narrow criteria

I could not justify the cost or complexity

Re-flash means ugrading the ecu "firmware"
 
#11 ·
Orrrrr...if you're real picky you can look at the connectors and make up the unit with factory connectors. This way, if you ever have to take your bike in for warranty work you just unplug/remove and presto! "Gee Mr. Dealer...I didn't do anything..." [emoji12]


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#15 ·
+1 on that. I'm considering the magnum because of my TBR exhaust. I'll sort it out so it has waterproof connectors. Less for the dealer and more for going back to stock. It sounds like it has at least enough adjustment with minor mods. I'd like to see a dyno comparison with AFR curve. There is information out there, just not specifically to our bikes yet. I'm glad there's an option over PC.
 
#13 ·
I tried Booster plug on my Husky (BMW motor & ecu) the ecu ultimately adapts out to the A/F of 14.7 (making the unit worthless) - the Booster plug "spoofs" the air temperature - to get permanent change the O2 needs to be "corrected" to 13.8 (or there abouts)

The AFXEID "spoofs" the O2 (not made for Kwakas), the Magnum Dyna Boost (specific Vulcan S) "spoofs" both the Air Temp & the O2

I'm more than happy with my Dyna Boost at a very sensible price
 
#14 · (Edited)
Like anything there are pro's and con's that need to be considered.

For the Magnum Boost
Pros would be:
Lower cost compared to PCV
compact size
Ability to add fuel

Cons would be:
Unable to remove fuel
Difficulty splicing in wiring (easy to get it wrong) or the need to create adapter as mentioned by Rangemaster.
It's not plug and play. You either need to AFR gauge on the bike to get the adjustable setting right to achieve a desired AFR (no guaranteed result)or just guess.
Also, adding a constant additional amount of fuel right across the rev range won't fix all problems.
I downloaded the PCV software and opened up the map made for Vulcan S 650 with a TB exhaust. There are areas around the 3k-4k rpm range where they're taking out as much as 20% fuel. Once it gets up to 4k-5k rpm range they're adding around 20% fuel but in the 5k-6k rev range there is little to no fuel adjustment from the stock tune. I have a screen shot of this highlighting the clouds of major change where you can see the most amount of map adjustment. I'll up load it when I get home.

For the PCV
Pros would be:
Actual plug and play. No splicing. Harness is pre-made for our bike with clear and detailed instructions including photos on a real Vulcan S.
Dyno testing or AFR measuring not essential. Unit comes with tune to suit stock bike. They have made small adjustments to improve the from factory bike already.
Additional map available for free to suit TB exhaust which would be very similar to most aftermarket straight through exhausts. This can be flashed to unit via the PCV software.
If you want to adjust your map further because of other mods you have done you can also use the optional extra Auto tune module which will store and use fuel trims to keep closer to a desired AFR by itself. This will not endanger your bike as you can set limits (eg. +/- 5%) as to how far it will add/trim fuel from the current map to reach the desired AFR.
Ability to control ignition which is a huge advantage. It's not all about +/- fuel.

Cons would be:
Requires a degree of mechanical ability. Injectors, ECU, and O2 sensor all need to be unplugged and/or adapter fitted to connect to PCV module.
Requires a small amount of computer knowledge if you just use the provided maps without modifying anything yourself.
Higher cost compared to Magnum Boost
Requires a PC if you want to flash a new map or utilise the Autotune features.
Slightly larger than Magnum boost but still very compact.
 
#16 ·
I have a Bazzaz Z-Fi on my ZX6R, which works much the same as PCV but offers from what I understand some finer control. I wish they would make one for this bike, but as far as I know they don't. I did just send them a message, so will report back.

FYI: Here is a good thread on Bazzaz vs PCV...which I used to make my decision to go with Bazzaz (which I don't regret). If Bazzaz will make a unit for the Vulcan S, I will go that route once I get the bike.

The Breakdown on Fuel Management Systems - ZX6R Forum
 
#17 ·
I did more than enough dyno testing on my Huskie TR 650 to get a good understanding of just how effective the Dyna Boost is

Because of that knowledge I'm able to transfer that across to my Vulcan S & more than willing to share

At least I can speak from experience & some technical knowledge of the subject

Rather than someone that's read only the marketing material & has no actual experience with PC etc etc
 
#19 ·
I did more than enough dyno testing on my Huskie TR 650 to get a good understanding of just how effective the Dyna Boost is
Because of that knowledge I'm able to transfer that across to my Vulcan S & more than willing to share
At least I can speak from experience & some technical knowledge of the subject
Rather than someone that's read only the marketing material & has no actual experience with PC etc etc
Okay so I've uploaded the fuel table to show that simply increasing fuel right across the rev range is not the silver bullet it would seem. The yellow highlighted areas show where fuel has been added, the areas circled with negative values show where fuel has been decreased.

The numbers speak for themselves. No marketing. No etc. etc.

I have no doubt that you have had experience using the Magna Boost on a dyno with a totally different bike. But as I mentioned in another thread on this topic. If people want to tune their bikes with something more accurate than gut feeling without the need to dyno for a good result, then PCV is the better option. If cost is a factor, let them decide, however I did want to point out that the two options are definitely not like for like.

It might also be wise to know who you're talking to before making assumptions about their credentials or experience just because they don't self promote status in a forum name.
 
#18 ·
The beauty of the Dyna Boost is that the fueling can be adjusted half-a-turn (or less) clockwise unit you are happy with the performance - turn anti-clockwise reduces the fuelling

I'm on 6 turns from zero - it might not be maximum power possible, however it runs so well I see no need to go further
 
#20 ·
C/E the O2 sensor actually increases or decreases fuel as required

Once the O2 sensor is removed from the system the ecu cannot effectively work

Many add-on fueling devices have no adaptability & work to a pre set map - ie closed loop

We are riding cruisers in a wide variety of environmental conditions, different countries with various fuel qualities etc etc plus the numerous exhaust system mods

The after market exhaust systems can play havoc with O2 readings - a good system will lift the O2 sensor 5-15mm to counteract any "back-flow" effect - there's quite a science involved

If the TBR system is over fuelling at mid range (as per your data) then I'd question their design criteria

Generally, on a cruiser mid range is more useful than top-end performance - plus noise ?

Each of us "tweak" our bikes to suit our own desires - open discussion is fun & possibly useful
 
#21 · (Edited)
Thanks EK9,
I'm well aware of how an O2 sensor works.
You are correct, the ecu will make fuel changes by itself from O2 readings in the exhaust but the Magna boost will always be adding fuel to whatever corrections the ECU makes and not trimming fuel when the ECU adds too much.
The only time you remove the O2 sensor is when you include the Autotune module. That setup removes the OEM sensor to avoid any variation to the base ECU map to keep it a constant, and replaces it with it's own O2 sensor to take control and make it's own changes to suit environmental conditions combined with the PCV correcting the ECU fuel and ignition signals.

Post Edit: PCV setup does disable the O2 sensor. Autotune uses O2 sensor readings as mentioned above.

For the record, it's not the TBR system that's over fueling. It's the stock map that comes with every Vulcan S doing what it's told to do. This is why an new map is required to make the correct adjustments when you change the exhaust. I'm not convinced you totally understand what's happening. The stock map is under fueling at mid range, therefore the PCV map adds fuel to compensate.

I think you're getting a bit off topic because it's the exhaust manufacturer that designs the O2 sensor position, not PCV.

From the 2 separate Dyno results I've seen so far there is a clear increase in torque and power from low right through to high range. I can't see how that can be a bad thing.
 
#22 ·
Cpt. so what happens if you just add a slip on muffler keeping the stock O2 sensor? Am I wrong to assume anything but a PCV reverts back to the stock lean map at a steady cruise speed or just the Boosterplug.

What is the time in milliseconds/ seconds before the computer takes over again? If this happens it would seem a device that adds more fuel all the time would be better than something that always defaults to stock again. At certain RPM or speeds this could cause an over rich condition and lessen fuel mileage but if cruise RPM is factory lean to start with a slightly richer map would in real life increase mileage and improve ridability and lessen vibration.

I am an old school guy that knows how to tune carbs this digital tuning is a mystery to me I have a lot of learning to do!
 
#25 ·
Cpt. so what happens if you just add a slip on muffler keeping the stock O2 sensor? Am I wrong to assume anything but a PCV reverts back to the stock lean map at a steady cruise speed or just the Boosterplug....
I am an old school guy that knows how to tune carbs this digital tuning is a mystery to me I have a lot of learning to do!
You seem to know more than you're letting on. If MDB can do that, congratulation.

Let me know when it can tell when the ECU is running too rich to begin with (because of the pipe you just added) and know how much to somehow trim off the fuel injector duration without running too lean.
The PCV chart I posted clearly shows this happening.
 
#23 · (Edited)
There can be pitfalls to running a constant rich condition. Fuel mileage, carbon buildup, potential for damaging rings, etc. Granted running lean is generally regarded as potentially more damaging.

It seems to me that this discussion has strayed a bit. I agree with Cpt. that it is not about a particular exhaust manufacturer but the necessity for a tune. I think it should also be considered as to what product (or type) is beneficial whether an exhaust and/or other modification is done or an improvement over the factory can be achieved if so desired.

I have no experience with motorcycle ECU'S. I do have experience with automotive mapping, but I won't assume that it's tit for tat.

It seems agreed that a new exhaust really should require a tune. As I see it the PCV is a true retune for the specific conditions of the bike. The Magna boost essentially is a hack. I'm not using that term as a negative connotation, it is tricking the temperature to add Fueling.

Cpt. Evil gave a very good pros/cons list. Consider price, future mods, adjustability and conditional changes.

Personally for me i'm leaning towards the Magna boost. I would prefer the PCV. Price trumps for me here. But, I suggest everyone base thier decision on the order of that criteria. I imagine the PCV is a superior product. For me I think I'd be paying for way more adjustability than I need. If I decide adding more Fueling on a constant basis isn't as beneficial as it sounds (even with the tunability of that increase via the Magna boost), then I'll shell out the extra $200.00.

Considering there's no back to back data to compare for our specific bikes, does anyone want to gofund me to buy both and get some dyno tunes??? Kidding kidding.
 
#26 ·
Cpt. Why do you take offence when people ask questions or add their 2 cents worth.....from what I have read there is none intended!! I have no experience with BoosterPlug Magnums or any other tuning device. I do read and pay attention to what others with real hands on experience say, sometimes I actually learn something which was the point of this thread!!

Illustratingbrandon, I agree an ICE water cooled FI engine in a bike or car the tuning should cross over. Glad to have your experience on here! BTW my truck has an air raid and duels how do i......wrong forum.

What is an MDB, from what I have read the factory map which I assume is in the ecu runs rich at certain speeds and lean in others....the BoosterPlug defaults to factory I guess the magnum and pcv do not by bypassing the input from the stock 02 how does that work?

If I knew the answers I would not ask!!!!
 
#27 ·
Cpt. Why do you take offence when people ask questions or add their 2 cents worth.....from what I have read there is none intended!!

What is an MDB, from what I have read the factory map which I assume is in the ecu runs rich at certain speeds and lean in others....the BoosterPlug defaults to factory I guess the magnum and pcv do not by bypassing the input from the stock 02 how does that work?
QUOTE]

MDB = Magnum Dyno Boost
 
#28 ·
Hey Drifter,
No worries mate.

I honestly thought you were leading me on and playing dumb.

I'm all for people asking questions but I'm so sick of hearing about Dyna Boost in every unrelated thread without any actual evidence of it's effectiveness on our bike other than opinion, on top of ragging on power commander, that has proven results on modified Vulcan S setups.

When you started this thread up and mentioned "trick the computer to richen up the mixture" I thought here we go again, Another "Spoof the computer" spiel!:rolleyes:
 
#29 ·
Hopefully fuel management/mapper units (Power Commander, Fuelpak, etc.) and the 'simpler' devices as well will be around for awhile for us to play with...considering the recent catfight between Harley and the EPA.

Looks like HD is paying $15 million USD in a settlement and pulling their SERT (Screamin' Eagle Race Tuner) from the market...apparently part of the settlement is also to retrieve any unsold dealer stock (and destroy it) and deny warranty claims on bikes that have them installed.

The EPA likely went after Harley because they have deeper pockets than Dynojet or Vance & Hines...but it makes you wonder what the future will bring.


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#31 ·
This is just for conversation sake.

I don't think there is anything to worry about with aftermarket fuel management / mapper units because those can be used on a variety of applications; on road, off road, race, etc.

I feel like the issue with Harley would be the equivalent of Ford selling a bunch of non street legal applications for there current year street products. They sorta do by selling Ford Motorsport brand, but those are specifically marketed toward off-road/race applications. I get the impression that Harley sold a street legal product that met all the CARB and EPA etc standards, but then turned around and sold a product or application designed to bypass those standards.

I haven't dug that much into it, so I could be wrong and I am speculating, but that is the impression that I get. Harley is also an easy target, they sell a specific bike to a specific market, where as *most* other manufactures also produce/sell/market a wide variety of products . When I go to Harley's website I see across the top "Motorcycles", "Customization", "Learn to Ride" etc. When I go to Kawasaki's website I see "Motorcycle", "ATV", "Side by Side", "Watercraft".

When you look at Kawasaki motorcycle's you see an expansive list of bikes from Sport variant, touring, cruiser, dual purpose, offroad, motorcross, etc. When you look at Harley you see 8 variations of a street cruiser bike.

If Harley sells an illegal street pipe or mapping system it is specifically designed for an already street approved vehicle. If Kawasaki sold (which they don't) such a product, at least they could hide behind a large suite of off-road machines.
 
#32 ·
The Magnum Dyna Boost injects a millivolt signal into to O2 feed to the ecu & a small additional resistance in series with the Air Temp sensor - this can be varied by the one adjusting screw - the O2 sensor because of the additional millivolt signal sees the O2 at 14.7 (OEM setting) where in fact the actual is less than that ideally 13.8 for more perfect combustion & power
The additional resistance in the AT effectively lowers the air temperature, the ECU increase fuelling at lower temperatures

The Booster plug only adds resistance to the AT, the ECU controlled by the O2 sensor will eventually adapt-out & revert back to the 14.7

The AXIED works effectively on the O2 sensor, I don't think they make one for Kawasaki's - sadly mine failed, & I'd installed the Dyna Boost unit before the replacement AXIED unit arrived - I was so happy with the Dyna Boost that there was no reason to continue with the AXIED (spelling?)

Generally for most purposes the O2 sensor provides the most efficient fueling - most manufacturers tweak the fueling to meet both emissions & noise & then again at full power, additional fuel to run cooler combustion temperatures

Also, in the mix is the need to maintain Cat temperature - after market exhausts generally don't have Cats, they also have lower back-pressure which can play havoc with cylinder scavenging

The OEM also changes from open loop to closed loop depending on throttle openings etc - PC does not have this ability

Possibly for Cruiser use the ability to "spoof" the O2 is sufficient, the ability to also "spoof" the AT is an additional benefit
 
#34 · (Edited)
This is starting to get old...

As far as I am concerned (and I run a unit similar to the PC called a Bazzaz in my ZX6R), the MDB is a Geo Prism compared to the PC which is more along the lines of a Corvette...or something.

The ONLY benefit MDB, et al have over PCV is price. That is it. For ability, functions, maps, etc...PCV is light years ahead of any other product available for the Vulcan S. I've been riding bikes for a few years now and this is the FIRST TIME I have EVER heard of MDB or any of the other ones mentioned in this thread. In the racing world (track days) pretty much everyone is either on Juicebox, Bazzaz or PCV. Tried and tested and proven. Cpt. has proven this with screenshots of the maps, etc. I don't know what else needs to be said?

The flat out denial of the above by some members on here is astounding. If the PCV is too rich for your blood financially, no shame in that game. It's all good. But just say so. That's what @Illustratingbrandon did and I can't fault him one bit for it. But at least he came out and said it and acknowledged the pro's that Cpt. listed. But some others...continually make false claims about things it does not do (which have been refuted) and it shows their true colors and does a disservice to the members (and Google lurkers) who are researching this topic. Don't bash a product just because it does not fit your budget. I have not seen one iota of information, hard proof, to suggest that MDB is better than PCV in any way other than $$$.

I honestly think some people here are pushing an agenda or are an employee/sponsor of said company...or something. That's how ridiculous some of the posts are. I try to mean no offense, but the posts...they just can't be ignored.

That being said...

I still am waiting to hear back from Bazzaz, I'm really hoping they make one for the Vulcan S or adapt their Ninja 650 one for the Vulcan S.
 
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