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post #11 of 35 (permalink) Old 11-09-2012, 03:21 PM Thread Starter
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CD's? You mean those fragile, easy to scratch things they used in olden days that only held a few songs. Nah, don't need 'em! Actually the head unit I was looking at was a 'Digital media receiver', no moving parts, no CD player. It did, however, have a tray that you could slide your iPhone into! And no, I haven't bought a head unit yet.

Will an external crossover (like in a marine component system) work as well as one built into the head unit?

So, given the choice between a lower dB speaker designed for 'free air' versus one that wasn't, but with a higher dB, you'd take the free air speaker in this application? More than anything I'm looking for volume and clarity at speed, not bass. I rode an electra glide once where the tour pak had been converted into a box for a 12 inch sub. Sub was nowhere to be heard on the highway. Though the music was coming through the speakers just fine. Bass just doesn't seem to reproduce (to my ears anyway) on a motorcycle in the wind.

Finally, on the large buttons, most brands make marine 'commanders' that work even with their non marine units. These go in the dashboard of a boat and wire in to the head unit that might be mounted elsewhere. They are small enough that they can be handlebar mounted and they are waterproof. That was my plan to solve the 'button' issue. It also allows me to manipulate the head unit in the rain with the housing closed and sealed. Alternatively, there is a 'kit' to connect nearly every brand of stereo to Harley-Davidson handlebar controls. I thought about getting such a kit for whatever brand of stereo I end up with, and mounting Harley handlebar controls on my bike somehow. That would give me volume, mute, next/prev, on/off, etc.



I've been digging and searching for speakers as well. Finding ones that meet all of your criteria whilst being marine certified is challenging. But I've got at least a few weeks before I'm ready to order so, I should be good.

"8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us."

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post #12 of 35 (permalink) Old 11-09-2012, 05:43 PM Thread Starter
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Okay Vulcandude, one more question

I was searching for head units with built in crossovers and I found references to high and low pass filters. Is it accurate to say high and low pass filters do what you say the head unit needs to do?

So I'm thinking about this one: http://www.crutchfield.com/p_158DSX2...X.html?tp=5684

It does what I need, Sony has a wired remote that can be handlebar mounted, etc. So the question is, will it do the crossover functions I need?

Thanks,


John

"8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us."

Romans 5:8 (NIV)

2014 Kawasaki Vulcan 1700 Vaquero ABS SE
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post #13 of 35 (permalink) Old 11-09-2012, 09:08 PM
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Vulcanrules has pretty much covered things. Just a couple of comments... A series capacitor in the speaker line will raise the effective impedance of the speaker at the low frequencies. Degree of low frequency roll-off will depend on the speaker and the value of the capacitor. Since the capacitor "blocks" bass and does not consume power (much anyway), the saved power can be applied to the mid and high range.

BTW, the capacitor should be a "non-polar" type. Two electrolytic capacitors (polarized) of twice the desired value can be connected in series with like polarity hooked together to make a non-polar. (That is feed - lead of one, connect + to other +, and connect the other - lead to speaker. Knowing the speaker, amp characteristics, and desired response, a capacitor value can be calculated but it may be easier to use trial and error.

Glanced at the sony and I would think you could set the equalizer to reduce base response and not use the capacitor FWIW passive cross-overs are a network of capacitors and inductors...

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post #14 of 35 (permalink) Old 11-09-2012, 10:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woody View Post
Vulcanrules has pretty much covered things. Just a couple of comments... A series capacitor in the speaker line will raise the effective impedance of the speaker at the low frequencies. Degree of low frequency roll-off will depend on the speaker and the value of the capacitor. Since the capacitor "blocks" bass and does not consume power (much anyway), the saved power can be applied to the mid and high range.

BTW, the capacitor should be a "non-polar" type. Two electrolytic capacitors (polarized) of twice the desired value can be connected in series with like polarity hooked together to make a non-polar. (That is feed - lead of one, connect + to other +, and connect the other - lead to speaker. Knowing the speaker, amp characteristics, and desired response, a capacitor value can be calculated but it may be easier to use trial and error.

Glanced at the sony and I would think you could set the equalizer to reduce base response and not use the capacitor FWIW passive cross-overs are a network of capacitors and inductors...

Woody
Well, actually, filters between the amp and speakers don't really facilitate any meaningful recycling or redistribution of the power. Even though you are correct that a series cap effectively raises the impedance below the high pass point, that power can't be effectively used in other parts of the frequency spectrum because it's still tied up in the voltage component of the low frequencies. This power you speak of isn't available unless the HPF or LPF are placed before the amp so it doesn't have to swing any voltage of the signal part not being reproduced by the speaker.

Romans, you thought you could find an easy answer here... That said, without making it unduly complex I do agree that Vulcanrules provided good, straightforward info as you could hope for without the complexities that Woody and I have introduced, Vulcanrules almost certainly knows about, and likely what you encountered similarly on more audio focused forums.

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post #15 of 35 (permalink) Old 11-10-2012, 12:51 AM Thread Starter
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Well, actually, filters between the amp and speakers don't really facilitate any meaningful recycling or redistribution of the power. Even though you are correct that a series cap effectively raises the impedance below the high pass point, that power can't be effectively used in other parts of the frequency spectrum because it's still tied up in the voltage component of the low frequencies. This power you speak of isn't available unless the HPF or LPF are placed before the amp so it doesn't have to swing any voltage of the signal part not being reproduced by the speaker.

Romans, you thought you could find an easy answer here... That said, without making it unduly complex I do agree that Vulcanrules provided good, straightforward info as you could hope for without the complexities that Woody and I have introduced, Vulcanrules almost certainly knows about, and likely what you encountered similarly on more audio focused forums.
I am VERY happy about the amount of information I'm getting here. The way I see it, I'm going to spend X amount of money on this project, so I want to get as much clear clean audio for that amount of money as I possibly can. It's well worth it to me to research these things from knowledgeable people! It's how I make every major(ish) purchase. I still feel like my 900 was the absolute best bike I could have possibly bought for the money, for the type of rider I was (a brand new rider wanting to tour!). And feeling like you got the best your money could have gotten you is much better than buyers remorse, or stumbling upon something else that you could have had! A few hundred bucks for a stereo setup isn't exactly a motorcycle, but it's still an investment and one I'd like to get the most out of!

Okay so, clarify this for me (anyone). When a stereo says it has 'high and low pass' filters, that is what I'm looking for right? That is accomplishing what I need without the capacitors or external crossovers?

"8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us."

Romans 5:8 (NIV)

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post #16 of 35 (permalink) Old 11-10-2012, 08:47 AM
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Yes, high pass and low pass filters in the stereo would be what you're looking for if you want to roll off frequencies above or below certain points. The filters are just like they say...low pass allows the bass/lower frequencies to pass through but rolls off the higher frequencies. A high pass filter allows the higher frequencies to pass through but rolls off the bass/lower frequencies. These filters, when used together, comprise a crossover.

High pass and low pass filters are not brick wall filters. IOW, say a high pass filter is 80Hz, everything below that is not completely blocked. The filters have sloped attenuation. The steeper the slope (in ascending order of steepness; 6dB/octave, 12dB/oct, 18dB/oct, 24dB/oct, etc.) the more the signal in the stop band is attenuated as you move further from the filter frequency.

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post #17 of 35 (permalink) Old 11-10-2012, 12:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Vulcanrules View Post
A 3 band eq is not a substitute for a crossover. It's objective is to diminish signal intensity at a given "center" and then rope in other frequencies adjacent both above and below it on an arc with the greatest cut at the stated frequency.

So it doesn't do much for 20 hz and frequencies above that which are left unaffected by the lowest EQ setting.
Most 3 band EQ's that I have seen have the top & bottom frequencies as "shelves" instead of notches. That means that everything below the shelf will be attenuated also with increasing amounts of attenuation the farther you get from the shelf frequency. 60Hz would be a good place to roll off unusable bass. A series capacitor will be about 6db per octave of roll-off, fairly smooth. From my experience a bass-blocking series capacitor should be less taxing on the amp's power supply giving the upper frequencies a bit more available power before clipping but it's best to do it before the amp. Remember music is dynamic, a 100w amp won't take 100w all the time, the actual long-term draw may be 1/2 to 1/3 of that especially with a class D (as mentioned) power amp.
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post #18 of 35 (permalink) Old 11-10-2012, 01:00 PM
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Running at full clean output (or put another way, running to the verge of clipping) an amp will average roughly 1/8 of its power output when playing music. Some genres and stuff that's heavily compressed can increase that duty cycle but it's a good all around number. This, coupled with that you're seldom going to be running the thing WFO, means there really isn't that much average power draw despite the amp's power rating.

You're better off to get a bigger amp and have clean power available than to undersize the amp and risk sending clipped power to the speakers. Not only does clipping sound bad but it can contribute to damaged speakers as well.
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post #19 of 35 (permalink) Old 11-11-2012, 08:47 AM
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The guys have pretty much covered lots of great information here.
As far as bass goes could be a few factors in that.
The box or sealed area can be a huge factor.
I would get the sealing compart that mounts behind the speaker if the fairing is not sealed.
I personally would go with the 6x9 for the lower frequency response and higher sensativity ratings.

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post #20 of 35 (permalink) Old 11-11-2012, 11:19 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by C00lCountry View Post
The guys have pretty much covered lots of great information here.
As far as bass goes could be a few factors in that.
The box or sealed area can be a huge factor.
I would get the sealing compart that mounts behind the speaker if the fairing is not sealed.
I personally would go with the 6x9 for the lower frequency response and higher sensativity ratings.
If I could hear bass on an electra glide with subs, I'm not going to hear it out of two 6x9's no matter what I do. As long as it has clean mids and highs, and is loud enough to hear on the highway, I'm happy. I have a nice system at home and one in my car if I want really excellent quality music. I want a fairing on my bike for the looks and wind protection, and I prefer the look of these bigger fairings anyway, and the stereo is a nice plus for longer trips!

I'd be ECSTATIC if I could get decent bass, but, every bike I've ridden with a stereo, some with subs, some with aftermarket 6.5" speakers, etc. All of them the bass disappeared as you got up to speed, even though it was clean and there was plenty of it at a stop.

Quote:
Originally Posted by whoaru99 View Post
Running at full clean output (or put another way, running to the verge of clipping) an amp will average roughly 1/8 of its power output when playing music. Some genres and stuff that's heavily compressed can increase that duty cycle but it's a good all around number. This, coupled with that you're seldom going to be running the thing WFO, means there really isn't that much average power draw despite the amp's power rating.

You're better off to get a bigger amp and have clean power available than to undersize the amp and risk sending clipped power to the speakers. Not only does clipping sound bad but it can contribute to damaged speakers as well.
Okay so bottom line, the VN900 has roughly 6 amps of leftover alternator 'juice' per Kawasaki. (70 watts, 12 volts). I also have some extra tail lights on my tour pak (albeit LED), and I will probably convert my turn and tail to LED. So, with all of that in mind, do you still think an amp would be viable? Any suggestions on an amplifier?

Also would there be any realistic disadvantages to putting a 4 channel amp (if I went that route) in the tour pak? I could probably find a way to mount it in the fairing, but, the tour pak would be an easier mount. That would mean running the pre-amp lines under the tank back, and then the speakers wires back up to the fairing (and perhaps two more inside the tour pak to speaker pods, though I'm not 100% on whether or not I want to invest in speaker pods, definitely won't do it right away)

Alpine also has a 45W RMS x4 amp that is very small and wires inline with the stereo (using the stereos wiring harness for juice, and speaker level or RCA level inputs) so that's an option too for size.

"8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us."

Romans 5:8 (NIV)

2014 Kawasaki Vulcan 1700 Vaquero ABS SE
iPod Connector Kit, Kuryakyn Highway Pegs, Mustang Touring Seat, Marvella's Hitch, Kuryakyn Trailer Wiring Kit, Haul-Master Tag-a-Long Cargo Trailer

2011 Honda Shadow Aero 750 (Wife's)

Memphis shades quick-release windshield, OEM Solo Seat, Mustang Fender Bib, Chrome Solo Luggage Rack

Past: 2006 Vulcan 900 Classic LT

Last edited by Romans5.8; 11-11-2012 at 11:23 PM.
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